Thursday, June 17
Thought For The Day, Custom-Made Luxury Epistemology Building Edition
How the post below on impossible planets came about is that I was day-dreaming about a story setting where the characters routinely travel to alternate universes with not just alternate histories, but alternate laws of physics and metaphysics - and that these alternatives are actually quantised, such that only certain sets of physical and metaphysical laws are possible.
I've termed this Quantum Epistemology, and I'm rating it on a scale of 0 (where the behaviour of all matter and energy is described by a small handful of supremely elegant equations) to 14 (where matter and energy are entirely matters of opinion):
0 - Order. Classical Newtonian (i.e. deterministic) materialism. Life probably does not exist, and if it does, is likely not very interesting.
1-2 - Hard Science. These universes follow consistent and universally applicable physical laws, but those laws are more complex and contain more surprises. Our Universe would fall into Stratum 2. In Stratum 1, Moore's Law wouldn't have failed at the 90nm node and Intel's plans for a 10GHz Pentium 4 would have run like clockwork.
3-4 - Soft Science. Physical laws are still consistent, but may appear somewhat arbitrary. Third law of thermodynamics may be violated under some conditions.
5-6 - Super Science. Physical laws, while consistent, contain many boundary cases that can be exploited for suprising and useful (or dangerous, or both) results. Second law of thermodynamics may be violated under some conditions. Faster-than-light travel and time travel become possible. Popular science fiction shows like Star Trek, Star Wars, Stargate, and Doctor Who fall somewhere in this range.
7 - Science Fantasy. Advanced technology starts to look more and more like magic, with increasingly arbitrary physical laws making it hard to connect cause and effect. First law of thermodynamics may be violated under some conditions.
8-9 - Techno Fantasy. While physical laws are locally consistent, they may not be universal in either space or time. The zeroth law of thermodynamics is thus no longer guaranteed. Advanced technology may no longer function reliably, but those who can recognise and adapt to the changing conditions can produce remarkable effects.
10-11 Fantasy. Physical laws are neither consistent nor universal, but to some degree local to and influenced by the observer. Magic - the manipulation of reality by the exercise of will - becomes possible. Advanced technology tends not to function at all.
12-13 Multi-person Solipsistic Panentheism. Mind, not matter, is the fundamental consistent of reality. Minds shape, even define, what reality is. Where minds come together, worlds may form out of the common elements of their dreams. A lot of Michael Moorcock's work explores this territory. And yes, I stole that that expression.
14. Chaos. Order is not defined. Life probably does not exist, and if it does, it is likely not recognisable.
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How the post below on impossible planets came about is that I was day-dreaming about a story setting where the characters routinely travel to alternate universes with not just alternate histories, but alternate laws of physics and metaphysics - and that these alternatives are actually quantised, such that only certain sets of physical and metaphysical laws are possible.
I've termed this Quantum Epistemology, and I'm rating it on a scale of 0 (where the behaviour of all matter and energy is described by a small handful of supremely elegant equations) to 14 (where matter and energy are entirely matters of opinion):
0 - Order. Classical Newtonian (i.e. deterministic) materialism. Life probably does not exist, and if it does, is likely not very interesting.
1-2 - Hard Science. These universes follow consistent and universally applicable physical laws, but those laws are more complex and contain more surprises. Our Universe would fall into Stratum 2. In Stratum 1, Moore's Law wouldn't have failed at the 90nm node and Intel's plans for a 10GHz Pentium 4 would have run like clockwork.
3-4 - Soft Science. Physical laws are still consistent, but may appear somewhat arbitrary. Third law of thermodynamics may be violated under some conditions.
5-6 - Super Science. Physical laws, while consistent, contain many boundary cases that can be exploited for suprising and useful (or dangerous, or both) results. Second law of thermodynamics may be violated under some conditions. Faster-than-light travel and time travel become possible. Popular science fiction shows like Star Trek, Star Wars, Stargate, and Doctor Who fall somewhere in this range.
7 - Science Fantasy. Advanced technology starts to look more and more like magic, with increasingly arbitrary physical laws making it hard to connect cause and effect. First law of thermodynamics may be violated under some conditions.
8-9 - Techno Fantasy. While physical laws are locally consistent, they may not be universal in either space or time. The zeroth law of thermodynamics is thus no longer guaranteed. Advanced technology may no longer function reliably, but those who can recognise and adapt to the changing conditions can produce remarkable effects.
10-11 Fantasy. Physical laws are neither consistent nor universal, but to some degree local to and influenced by the observer. Magic - the manipulation of reality by the exercise of will - becomes possible. Advanced technology tends not to function at all.
12-13 Multi-person Solipsistic Panentheism. Mind, not matter, is the fundamental consistent of reality. Minds shape, even define, what reality is. Where minds come together, worlds may form out of the common elements of their dreams. A lot of Michael Moorcock's work explores this territory. And yes, I stole that that expression.
14. Chaos. Order is not defined. Life probably does not exist, and if it does, it is likely not recognisable.
Posted by: Pixy Misa at
03:32 AM
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1
You can quantize that a bit more finely, I think.
0 is an area of perfect mechanistic determinism. Doesn't matter if life is possible there or not - you can't get there, because the local phenomena won't allow for your existence there. It's a theoretical pole, the same as whatever value we assign undifferentiated chaos is.
1 represents an area that's almost perfectly mechanistic - except that the local phenomena do allow for at least some form of movement between realities. Probably not any life; if it is, almost certainly not biological life. The sort of place where you'd expect endless cogs running forever, as opposed to worlds per se. Entirely likely that the introduction of travelers, and their actions, would result in huge, scary, apocalyptic disasters as their interference gums up the works (though maybe not for millennia?)
2 then corresponds to your "real world with stronger rules" example. 3 is our observed reality, with the caveat that quantum weirdness might make it a 4 or 5 without our being able to appreciate it yet.
I think your desire to quantize available rule sets of realities is detracted from somewhat by clumping them into groups of 2; the implication is that there's some kind of continuum or gradation between the two, which isn't compatible with the quantum idea. So what's the diff between a 3 and 4? Between 5 and 6?
0 is an area of perfect mechanistic determinism. Doesn't matter if life is possible there or not - you can't get there, because the local phenomena won't allow for your existence there. It's a theoretical pole, the same as whatever value we assign undifferentiated chaos is.
1 represents an area that's almost perfectly mechanistic - except that the local phenomena do allow for at least some form of movement between realities. Probably not any life; if it is, almost certainly not biological life. The sort of place where you'd expect endless cogs running forever, as opposed to worlds per se. Entirely likely that the introduction of travelers, and their actions, would result in huge, scary, apocalyptic disasters as their interference gums up the works (though maybe not for millennia?)
2 then corresponds to your "real world with stronger rules" example. 3 is our observed reality, with the caveat that quantum weirdness might make it a 4 or 5 without our being able to appreciate it yet.
I think your desire to quantize available rule sets of realities is detracted from somewhat by clumping them into groups of 2; the implication is that there's some kind of continuum or gradation between the two, which isn't compatible with the quantum idea. So what's the diff between a 3 and 4? Between 5 and 6?
Posted by: Avatar_exADV at Thursday, June 17 2010 10:38 AM (pWQz4)
2
I haven't worked out pithy labels for half the levels yet, that's why I grouped them together.
You've grasped exactly where I'm going with this. You either can't get to, can't exist in, or can't return from strata 0 and 14; no-one knows which, just that any attempts inevitably end badly.
Making stratum 1 accessible but mechanistic and bumping us down to stratum 3 isn't a bad idea either.
One rule of thumb I came up with is that there's a logarithmic scale on the minimum feature size for working semiconductors. In our Universe, we can probably get down to about 10nm. For each two levels there's a factor of 10. So two levels down (stratum 4 by my original list) the absolute limit would be ~100nm, which we reached around 2002. That would mean a civilisation comparably advanced to ours would have Pentium Pros and Nintendo 64s. At stratum 7, ~3µm, 1975 tech, Apple IIs and the like. That is, a 1MHz 6502 would be a big, complex, expensive chip. By stratum 8 or 9, you don't have microprocessors at all - and if you import them from further up the ladder, they quickly die from accelerated electromigration. (I'd have the lifespan run on the same logarithmic scale.)
You've grasped exactly where I'm going with this. You either can't get to, can't exist in, or can't return from strata 0 and 14; no-one knows which, just that any attempts inevitably end badly.
Making stratum 1 accessible but mechanistic and bumping us down to stratum 3 isn't a bad idea either.
One rule of thumb I came up with is that there's a logarithmic scale on the minimum feature size for working semiconductors. In our Universe, we can probably get down to about 10nm. For each two levels there's a factor of 10. So two levels down (stratum 4 by my original list) the absolute limit would be ~100nm, which we reached around 2002. That would mean a civilisation comparably advanced to ours would have Pentium Pros and Nintendo 64s. At stratum 7, ~3µm, 1975 tech, Apple IIs and the like. That is, a 1MHz 6502 would be a big, complex, expensive chip. By stratum 8 or 9, you don't have microprocessors at all - and if you import them from further up the ladder, they quickly die from accelerated electromigration. (I'd have the lifespan run on the same logarithmic scale.)
Posted by: Pixy Misa at Thursday, June 17 2010 02:44 PM (PiXy!)
3
0 - Order. Classical Newtonian (i.e. deterministic) materialism. Life
probably does not exist, and if it does, is likely not very interesting.
So, North Dakota then.
So, North Dakota then.
Posted by: Wonderduck at Thursday, June 17 2010 03:30 PM (iJfPN)
4
I know interesting people in North Dakota. They'd probably sell themselves into slavery to escape...
Have you read "A Fire on the Deep" by Vinge? He played with a concept very similar to the one that you have in mind for the technology... but his wasn't a universal constant, so much as a function of proximity to a galactic core. Take advanced stuff towards the core and it'd just quit working, often unexpectedly or erratically. Take primitive stuff towards the periphery and you'd see weird emergent behavior. Go far enough out and your computers start transcending... too deep and your brain can't maintain thought.
I dunno if I like the limits on semiconductors. Not that it's not, y'know, neat. But you're basically saying "anything with physical laws less rigorous than observed reality will necessarily have inferior computer technology". Doesn't that kind of cramp the style of the "soft science" crowd?
I'm getting a Shadowrun feel from the idea...
Have you read "A Fire on the Deep" by Vinge? He played with a concept very similar to the one that you have in mind for the technology... but his wasn't a universal constant, so much as a function of proximity to a galactic core. Take advanced stuff towards the core and it'd just quit working, often unexpectedly or erratically. Take primitive stuff towards the periphery and you'd see weird emergent behavior. Go far enough out and your computers start transcending... too deep and your brain can't maintain thought.
I dunno if I like the limits on semiconductors. Not that it's not, y'know, neat. But you're basically saying "anything with physical laws less rigorous than observed reality will necessarily have inferior computer technology". Doesn't that kind of cramp the style of the "soft science" crowd?
I'm getting a Shadowrun feel from the idea...
Posted by: Avatar_exADV at Friday, June 18 2010 06:55 PM (mRjOr)
5
Vinge's zones are a similar concept. They don't make a whole lot of sense, though.
One of the reasons for the limits on semiconductors is to fit in with the classical SF tropes. One thing you don't see a lot of in golden-age and golden-age influenced SF is advanced computers - though you do see a lot of robots.
Anyway, it makes sense that if you're loosening the laws of physics, machines that rely on a very precise application of those laws stop working. Modern computers and communications would be the first to go.
And I want to see a big stratum 6 or 7 computer built with millions upon millions of highly sophisticated and miniaturised thermionic valves.
One of the reasons for the limits on semiconductors is to fit in with the classical SF tropes. One thing you don't see a lot of in golden-age and golden-age influenced SF is advanced computers - though you do see a lot of robots.
Anyway, it makes sense that if you're loosening the laws of physics, machines that rely on a very precise application of those laws stop working. Modern computers and communications would be the first to go.
And I want to see a big stratum 6 or 7 computer built with millions upon millions of highly sophisticated and miniaturised thermionic valves.
Posted by: Pixy Misa at Friday, June 18 2010 07:09 PM (PiXy!)
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