No boom today. Boom tomorrow. There's always a boom tomorrow.
Saturday, March 31
Always In The Last Place You Look
I've been scratching my head trying to work out why the main query that drives Minx blogs is so inefficient. I tweak indexes and I tweak selection criteria and I tweak sorting and nothing seems to improve the query time reported at the bottom of the page. Now, normally it's only 20ms or so, but if you catch it after an update - a new post or comment - it blows out to 400ms or so because the query cache just got flushed.
So I tweaked and I twiddled and I fiddled and fretted, and I took the query and plugged in some parameters and ran it outside of Minx, and it turned out to be, in fact, reasonably quick.
Then I tried disabling the sidebar to see what effect that had on the total query time.
19ms cached; 28ms uncached. Perfectly reasonable for selecting and sorting and joining multiple fairly complex (albeit small) subsets of 13,000 records.
It's those darn recent comments again!
Update: And now I remember why recent comments are slow. When you list the recent comments, you're listing the last 20 (or whatever) comments in a folder. But comments aren't in folders, they're in threads, so you have to look at the threads in the folder, and then find the most recent comments from among the comments in those threads. Big slow join before the sort.
There's a straightforward way to optimise the common case - use either multiple queries or subqueries to restrict MySQL to only inspect the 20 most recently updated threads. That gets messy for the general case, though, where you want page 17 of recent comments.
Need to spend a bit more time thinking about this one.
Update: Gargh! MySQL 5.0.27 doesn't support LIMIT in subqueries anyway.
Update: Well, it doesn't if you're using IN to restrict the main search to a subset of threads selected by the subquery, but if you use the subquery to return the update datetime of the nth most recently updated thread and then restrict the search to threads updated since then, you're swimming in gravy.
...
Which would be pretty unpleasant, come to think of it.
Posted by: Pixy Misa at Saturday, March 31 2007 05:19 PM (PiXy!)
3
New query is in place. Seems not to have broken things too badly...
Posted by: Pixy Misa at Monday, April 02 2007 03:28 AM (PiXy!)
4
Seems to be roughly 20x faster on the common worst case (query cache flushed, showing most recent comments) and no slower on the best case (query in cache) or absolute worst case (cache flushed, page n of n).
Posted by: Pixy Misa at Monday, April 02 2007 03:32 AM (PiXy!)
Well, the way it worked was that if you wanted, say, the 20 most recent comments, it found the date of the 20th most recently updated post, and only scanned the comments of posts updated at least as recently as that.
If you didn't have 20 posts, that kind of went bang.
Testing a modified version now.
Posted by: Pixy Misa at Monday, April 02 2007 12:25 PM (PiXy!)
6
Yeah, that seems to be okay too. Take the max() of the updated datetime of the N most recent posts instead.
Posted by: Pixy Misa at Monday, April 02 2007 12:26 PM (PiXy!)
7
Okay, I'm not sure that the new version actually works, performance-wise. Test test...
Posted by: Pixy Misa at Monday, April 02 2007 12:32 PM (PiXy!)
Posted by: Pixy Misa at Monday, April 02 2007 12:35 PM (PiXy!)
11
Fnordles. The new subquery works just fine as a stand-alone query, but plug it into the main query and it all sucks. Some kind of limitation or bug in the MySQL query optimiser? Dunno.
But since an extra query only adds a few hundred microseconds, and I've already spent hours trying to make this work, I'm gonna go for the easy way out.
Posted by: Pixy Misa at Monday, April 02 2007 12:56 PM (PiXy!)
12
Well, that's not working either. But now that I can see the results from the subquery, I know why it's not working.
I don't know how to make it work, but I know why it's not working.
Posted by: Pixy Misa at Monday, April 02 2007 01:15 PM (PiXy!)
13
Trying again, this time with nested subqueries...
Posted by: Pixy Misa at Monday, April 02 2007 01:46 PM (PiXy!)
Posted by: Pixy Misa at Monday, April 02 2007 01:46 PM (PiXy!)
16
Hey, Webmaster! There's some loon using the name "Pixy" who's spamming your blog. If I were you, I'd ban him. (He can't possibly have anything interesting to say.)
Posted by: Steven Den Beste at Monday, April 02 2007 02:05 PM (+rSRq)
Categories. On the right. On the category icons. In the trees. They're everywhere! Eeeeee!!!
...
Sorry.
Fixed a couple of problems. The MT->Minx transfer marked posts as unpublished under their individual categories (sort of, it's complicated), so they showed on the main blog page, but not on the category pages. And a bug in the recent comments query meant that recent comments didn't show up at all on category pages.
Now, back to being driven crazy by this darn editor.
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Friday, March 30
Bad Surprises
I was back at my old job today, preparing for what I hope is one of the last phone company bill runs I ever have to do, when suddenly, at about 5:45 on a Friday afternoon,* the billing server dropped dead.
My first thought was Do we have backups? Yes, we have backups.** Okay then, let's haul the server out, plug it into a monitor (the computer room is not terribly well organised), and see what we get.
After a certain amount of fiddling I managed to get a BIOS screen up, and select the boot menu, whereupon the server spontaneously rebooted. I tried this several times with identical results; in fact, leaving the server alone would result in a boot-crash-boot-crash cycle just like my unlamented Compaq notebook.
There are four lights on the front of the server that indicate a POST code, so I hit Dell's website for the user manual and looked it up. Running down the list: CPU failure, memory failure, hard drive failure.***
USB failure.
Swapped the keyboard to a different USB port and it worked perfectly.
* There's some sort of physical law that requires this. ** It would take a couple of days to rebuild the system and restore the backups, but at least we had backups. From the previous day, I should add. *** This is the mission-critical server that was spec'd with only one disk drive, so my first thought was exactly that.
1
Now that I've actually seen it, I went back and reread Chris Beveridge's reviews of the series. He turns out to be the one who hated the ending. I really strongly disagree with him on that -- but that's what makes horse-races, I guess.
Posted by: Steven Den Beste at Saturday, March 31 2007 08:29 AM (+rSRq)
I've not seen the whole series, only the first couple of eps, but I laughed all the way thru them. I didn't have any urge to go out and see anything more, though.
Now I do, darn it.
Posted by: Wonderduck at Saturday, March 31 2007 11:24 AM (svIB9)
70ms for the main page without comments. 150ms with comments. 96 comments displayed (including the Recent Comments thingy).
Hmm. A bit disappointing, considering this is the fastest hardware I'm likely to get this year.
I just hope that Ace, who has 200+ comments on individual posts, doesn't try to do inline comments.
Update: Well, it's not broken, just a bit poky at certain tasks. An individual entry page takes 5.7ms (elapsed time) if you remove the Recent Comments. 2.9ms of that is the SQL queries. The forum page sans sidebar takes 54ms to list 20 posts; 6ms for the queries. (The query times are for cached queries; uncached takes longer in elapsed time, but that doesn't come into CPU efficiency of the application code.)
If I tweak the forum listing to include the body of the post, it takes exactly the same amount of time to within the limits of precision of the built-in timer. Which shouldn't be surprising I guess; all the data processing is done whether the template needs it or not, and Python's string processing is very efficient. It does point to where I need to concentrate my attention, though.
Update: Adding the planned [topics] selector and the associated [topic] data tags reduces the time for a forum page sans sidebar to 13ms. The sidebar adds another 13ms. Extending it from 20 to 50 topics pushes the time out to 42ms: about 500μs per topic, compared to about 2ms per entry.
1
Ace and the Jawas are the smoke test. If you can survive them, you can survive anything.
Posted by: Steven Den Beste at Saturday, March 31 2007 12:16 AM (+rSRq)
2
Both Ace and the Jawas are already running an early version of the Minx comment system, because MT comments folded up under the strain. The full version has a lot more features and so is slower, but it isn't enormously slower.
Here's the result from an Ace post with 295 comments on the old system:
Processing 0.13, elapsed 0.1542 seconds. 15 queries taking 0.0494 seconds, 304 records returned. Page size 185 kb. Powered by Minx 0.7 alpha.
Posted by: Pixy Misa at Saturday, March 31 2007 03:58 AM (PiXy!)
3
Did you ever puzzle out what was causing the input lag in high comment count posts? There have been a lot of 200+ posts over there lately, and the lag gets really noticable beyond that point.
Posted by: Will at Saturday, March 31 2007 11:38 AM (olS40)
If you entered something in New Comments Thingy, it wouldn't update the main page or the entry page, but it updates the New Comments Thingy page right away... Unless it still has caching enabled... Which would affect everyone but me, because it doesn't cache if you're logged in...
Posted by: Pixy Misa at Saturday, March 31 2007 12:08 PM (kdEVa)
Well I had noticed a problem with the comment count on the main page not updating (new posts show 0 comments for quite a while), but what I was actually referring to is a noticable lag between entering keystrokes and the letters appearing on the screen in the text box of the New Comments Thingy.
I've been watching the CPU Usage in the Task Manager while typing a comment on a couple threads over at AoSHQ, and it spikes when you begin typing a comment in a thread that already has about 150+ comments. If you just keep typing away furiously, none of the text will appear until after you've paused and given it time to catch up.
The more comments, the worse the problem gets. I don't know if it's a problem with the comments system or maybe IE (or other browsers) interacting with the comment system. Several people have remarked on it over at Ace's, so it can't be just me. Try his recent open thread and see if you observe the same thing happening.
Posted by: Will at Saturday, March 31 2007 04:43 PM (SOx9v)
No, I don't get that at all. But I use Firefox. Let me try it in IE...
Gak!!! That's horrible! What the hell?!
I'll definitely look into that. But the editor itself works fine on IE, so I don't know why it would suddenly blow up on long threads. It shouldn't make any difference.
Posted by: Pixy Misa at Saturday, March 31 2007 04:55 PM (PiXy!)
Well, you're certainly right. It only seems to happen in IE, and only on longer threads. I even tried the "view page in IE" plugin I have installed in Firefox, and it worked just fine there.
Very weird indeed.
Posted by: Pixy Misa at Saturday, March 31 2007 05:06 PM (PiXy!)
[me] picks up the author of the current post or comment. [you] gets your username if you're logged in, or the name you used on your most recent comment if it's still retained by the session code, or the text specified, or if all else fails, "you".
It appears it was my fault. I have some rather rigorous filtration rules set up with Proxomitron to shut off various aspects of Javascript that are often abused, and one of them must have come into conflict with your editing stuff.
With Proxomitron disabled, the editing buttons are back.
By the way, I have to confess that I tried an experiment with my previous post. I wanted to see if you permitted me to put an "embed" statement in a comment, and it turns out that you didn't. Now that I'm using your full comment doohickey, I'm going to try it again and see what happens:
So the embed shows up on preview; let's see if it comes through after it's posted.
Posted by: Steven Den Beste at Thursday, March 29 2007 12:40 PM (+rSRq)
Posted by: Steven Den Beste at Thursday, March 29 2007 12:41 PM (+rSRq)
8
I have a full-bore SGML parser that unpacks comments, strips unwanted tags and attributes, balances unbalanced tags, and repacks everything. It runs dynamically every time a page is generated, and accounts for up to 70% of the page generation time.
On the other hand, it works.
Posted by: Pixy Misa at Thursday, March 29 2007 01:02 PM (PiXy!)
Posted by: [me] at Thursday, March 29 2007 01:43 PM (CglRh)
11
Nope, that wasn't it... I'll learn this somehow and Steven is right, YOU are smarter 'n me!
Posted by: GM Roper at Thursday, March 29 2007 01:44 PM (CglRh)
12
You can only put it in the body of the comment, not in the name field.
Posted by: Pixy Misa at Thursday, March 29 2007 01:56 PM (PiXy!)
13
Okay my eyes are crossing. I've been silly enough to volunteer to do some web stuff for a group I belong to. I was simply going to help the webmaster... but as soon as I volunteered, he said "gee thanks now I can get out of this". I've been looking at html and php for the last week... I haven't done any dynamic coding before this - so I must say, I am very very impressed with everything you've done.
Now to check out the taggies and see what happens...
Teresa you
Posted by: Teresa at Thursday, March 29 2007 02:36 PM (gsbs5)
1
Automatic Update is truly evil. I have never turned it on.
It's possible to make that little reminder go away. Originally I figured out the program that was doing it and deleted the program (and then went into the OS backup directory and deleted it there, too, so that it didn't automatically get restored) but later I found a place where you could tell Windows to stop bugging you. Alas, I don't remember the details now, but I think that the latter was a setting buried in the "Security Center" control section for auto-update.
Posted by: Steven Den Beste at Thursday, March 29 2007 04:18 AM (+rSRq)
2
Sorry for a little test.
This is a separate line.
This is also a separate line, with a blank line just above it.
I think I'm going to lose my linebreaks when this comment is posted.
Posted by: Steven Den Beste at Thursday, March 29 2007 04:19 AM (+rSRq)
3
I don't know if it's your fault or my fault, but I no longer see any formatting controls for comment entry, and my line breaks are all getting eaten.
Let's see what happens to the two "br" tags I just put in above this line.
Posted by: Steven Den Beste at Thursday, March 29 2007 04:21 AM (+rSRq)
Hmmm... the comment I left ("Yes, Security Center is where it's at... I turned mine off 5 minutes after turning on my new computer. Dialup and all that. Blah blah blah") seems to have disappeared.
Something I said?
Posted by: Wonderduck at Thursday, March 29 2007 06:08 PM (fQiSx)
5
Um. Don't know. I was messing around with the comment system, but I don't know if the times coincide.
Posted by: Pixy Misa at Thursday, March 29 2007 08:18 PM (PiXy!)
Would have been around 930am central time, which would have been, let's see... (the F1 race was at 1pm Sunday your time, and 10pm our time on Saturday, so that would make it... 13 hours, more or less, so...) 1030pm your time? Give or take.
There were actually two comments, one here, one in the 2006 anime conversation, both poofed.
Ah well.
Posted by: Wonderduck at Friday, March 30 2007 01:04 AM (135bi)
7
That was about when I was messing with the comments. It was only down briefly, so I guess you were just unlucky.
Posted by: Pixy Misa at Friday, March 30 2007 01:24 AM (+7YmF)
Bad timing, indeed. Oh well. Lost the greatest line ever, too: "Pixy, I love you in the special way only a duck can love an evil magical girl, but I disagree with you."
Hey, there it is again!
Posted by: Wonderduck at Friday, March 30 2007 04:32 PM (fQiSx)
Though it's good, it doesn't strike me as being that outstanding. I suspect that what I'm missing is context. What I suspect I'm missing is that the hooplah was from people who were comparing it to all the other shows that came out at the same time, and by comparison to the normal run-of-the-dreck series from the last year, it really did seem like a lightning strike.
Context is key, in two ways.
First, as Steven says, 2006 was a pretty blah year for anime, and Haruhi is a good show, with a solid story, strong cast, and high production values.
But second, and specific to Haruhi Suzumiya, is the effect of the re-ordering of the episodes. It's effective when you watch the episodes one after the other, but it's crazy-making when you watch them a week apart.
BBCode update one for the morning: You can now add links to the attribution in [quote] tags. Just separate the author name and the link with a pipe character, |. So in this case, the code was [quote="Steven|http://denbeste.nu"], producing
Shakugan no Shana, though, while we're on the subject of melon-pan.
Okay, so two really good series in 2006. What else am I forgetting? (And don't say Kanon!!!)
Posted by: Pixy Misa at Thursday, March 29 2007 12:20 AM (kdEVa)
3
I haven't seen either (I know, everybody can turn up their nose at me now).
However, I can attest that getting into an ongoing series or serial of
any nature can at times be a completely different experience than
shotgunning it after the fact. I've seen or read things that had
me by the edge of my seat at the time, yet just weren't as powerful
when I went back to them after they had been completed. There's
just something about not knowing what's going to happen next, waiting
days on end to find out. Your brain entertains itself by
imagining possibilities, wargaming scenarios. That's a lot of fun
by itself, and those who went through the experience will likely
cherish that as much as, if not more than, the original content.
Posted by: Big D at Thursday, March 29 2007 12:39 AM (2wI5S)
"Okay, so two really good series in 2006. What else am I forgetting?"
Death Note.
Ouran High School Host Club.
Welcome To The NHK!
Nodame Cantible (though, really, it debuted in early January, 2007).
Kanon 2006.
Simoun.
Aria the Natural.
...and that's just off the top of my head, not even including Shana and Zero (neither of which did I watch).
I think the "2006 was a crappy year for anime" meme should be killed off immediately. Haruhi was arguably the best of a very good group, as opposed to "the diamond in a bucket of filth" as some are beginning to say.
This list doesn't even include Otome wa... ,Nana,Strawberry Panic, or Hellsing Ultimate, all of which were popular, though not what anybody would call classics.
Context may be everything, but claiming that Haruhi was the only shining spot in a blah year is just wrong.
Posted by: Wonderduck at Thursday, March 29 2007 03:20 AM (135bi)
So that's why my honeypot wasn't catching any flies. I hadn't properly updated the code, and it was still expecting the Page object to be a global - which hasn't been true since the Great Rewrite back in January.
Without the Page object, it didn't have access to... well, much of anything, really. Including the database. So it never actually created any records.
Let's see what it does now...
Hmm. Still empty, but it hasn't been fixed very long.
Guess I should pretend to be a spammer and actually test it.
Posted by: Pixy Misa at Wednesday, March 28 2007 12:00 PM (PiXy!)
2Okay, updated the standard form (and made a mess the first time), so let's see if comments still work.
Posted by: Pixy Misa at Wednesday, March 28 2007 12:06 PM (PiXy!)
3
One time I stumbled onto J Greely's honeypot by accident and had to send him email to ask to be unbanned. When you said you were going to test your own honeypot I was worried for a moment that you might find yourself completely locked out of your development system.
Posted by: Steven Den Beste at Wednesday, March 28 2007 04:51 PM (+rSRq)
4
Usually you only do that once, and then you whitelist one IP address to make sure you can get back in and undo it. I was very careful to set mine up this way, since the machine was 75 miles away and didn't have a remote console. :-)
In this case, he's probably only blacklisting at the application level, not changing his firewall config to drop all packets the way I do when someone visits the /banmyipaddress/ URL on my site.
-j
Posted by: J Greely at Wednesday, March 28 2007 07:16 PM (9Nz6c)
5
Yep. I'd be pretty hesitant about auto-firewalling anyone given the number of sites hosted on this server.
Posted by: Pixy Misa at Wednesday, March 28 2007 07:49 PM (PiXy!)
One of the features I've built in to Minx is BBCode support. You can use this in both posts and comments. At least, you should be able to use it in comments. We'll soon see.
I knew that Niven-style Ringworlds required materials with impossible tensile strengths (beyond anything known by quite a few orders of magnitude), but I wasn't sure about Banks-style orbitals. Orbitals, as well as being much smaller, have the attraction that they are in orbit about their sun and don't exhibit the dynamic instability of ringworlds.
So how big can we build an orbital? The answer is, not very.
Micro-scale samples of carbon nanotubes have apparently been tested with a tensile strength of 62GPa. That means they can withstand a tensile force of 62GN/m2* before breaking.
The density of said carbon nanotubes is 1.34g/cm3. Assuming we want an acceleration of 1G - let's round it up to 10m/s2 for simplicity - this gives us a maximum circumference of 62GPa / 13.4kN/m3 = 4600km.**
The theoretical maximum tensile strength for carbon nanotubes is 300GPa, which would give us 23,000km. But I'd want to have a safety factor of 5, which would eat that gain, or reduce our circumference to about 900km for current materials.
That last figure also means that you couldn't rely on gravity to hold your atmosphere in; for any reasonable atomosphere retention you'd need walls rising pretty much the radius of the structure. So it would have to be a sealed environment.
An orbital that size*** with a population density of, say, The Netherlands, would support 18 million people. Its mass is kind of arbitrary, but if we make it 100m thick, we get about 6 trillion tons. The asteroid 10 Hygiea† would provide enough materials to build 10,000 of these, giving us room for 180 billion people.****
Just in case you were looking for an investment property...
* Hey, I have super/subscript in the comments editor, but not in the post editor. I really need to fix that! ** I think I got the units right there. I'm pretty sure I at least got the scalar quantities right. *** Let's give it a width of 50km for the sake of getting a number here. **** If we had theoretical-limit materials and scaled everything up linearly - including the thickness - we'd get 80 habitats capable of holding 450 million people each.
† A test of my new Wikipedia linky tags, [wp] and [wikipedia]. It's a generalised bit of code that will allow me to extend it to making easy links to any site. It doesn't have the smarts I added for the [youtube] tag, though; that one can take the video ID itself, but given a full Youtube URL it will extract the ID before putting it into the template.
So, the circumference would be about 540 miles, or almost a round trip from Chicago to Minneapolis.
Seems like it'd be a rather... how to put this?... well, dull place to live. Particularly with 18 million people living in it. Maybe I've not got a good handle on the overall scope of the thing, but it seems like it may just be a tad crowded.
Posted by: Wonderduck at Tuesday, March 27 2007 08:20 PM (135bi)
It would have the size, population, and approximate topography of the Netherlands. And this is supposed to be something in it's favor, is it?
Why not just 'glue' thirty or forty of these things together, make a tube out of them (and use the materials of another 20 to provide structural strength to the outside)? Though it'd still be a boring place, more or less, it'd be much bigger.
Posted by: Wonderduck at Tuesday, March 27 2007 11:41 PM (VdgKc)
6
"Seems like it'd be a rather... how to put this?... well, dull place to live. "
Who says there can only be one?
HELP Pixy! You know how your RSS feed opens a page with comments that = New Comment Thingy? Ace's don't, and it makes it painful to read, knowing I can't put a snarky comment on it. And the jawas are even worse, since it lets you comment and then just deletes it.
Please fix their RSS feeds for them. If you do, I promise to send you 1 dollar. Yes, I'm that serious.
Posted by: Kevin at Wednesday, March 28 2007 12:12 AM (/ndDU)
7And this is supposed to be something in it's favor, is it?
Weeeell...
Why not just 'glue' thirty or forty of these things together, make a
tube out of them (and use the materials of another 20 to provide
structural strength to the outside)? Though it'd still be a boring
place, more or less, it'd be much bigger.
The idea of an orbital is that being a narrow ring, you can get plenty of sunlight in, albeit at an oblique angle. Now I just need to calculate how fast the thing would need to rotate... Hmm. This scribble says it would rotate every 7.5 minutes. That makes for a pretty short day...
Posted by: Pixy Misa at Wednesday, March 28 2007 02:02 AM (PiXy!)
8HELP Pixy! You know how your RSS feed opens a page with comments that
= New Comment Thingy? Ace's don't, and it makes it painful to read,
knowing I can't put a snarky comment on it. And the jawas are even
worse, since it lets you comment and then just deletes it.
I'm beta-testing the new mu.nu blogging system here. Ace and the Jawas will be moving to it soon, and then all those problems will be fixed.
(To be replaced by a whole new set of problems...)
Posted by: Pixy Misa at Wednesday, March 28 2007 02:03 AM (PiXy!)
Though it'd still be a boring place, more or less, it'd be much bigger.
That depends. Would it also have the Netherlands' laws?
Anyways, topography need not be dull, at least according to this:
The inside of the hoop can be formed to any type of planetaryenvironment, from desert to ocean to jungle to glacier. The hoop is usually divided into individual 'plates', similar to continents, though there is usually no directly visible indication for the transition from one plate to another. Some plates mimic natural environments very closely, other are wild exaggerations possible only by advanced matter forming and intricate (but usually hidden) machinery - such as a gigantic river circumventing the whole orbital, which in some reaches travels on immense, kilometre-high bridge- or mountain-range-like constructions, and in other regions might act as an immense 'waterslide' for a floating event stadium.
Posted by: TallDave at Thursday, March 29 2007 07:42 PM (odS+4)
11
Yeah, but Banks' orbitals are made of unobtainium.
Wiki article wrote:
The Culture's orbitals are approximately ten million kilometres in
circumference and have widths varying between one thousand and six
thousand kilometres
That's a whole lot bigger than what we could theoretically build today.
Posted by: Pixy Misa at Thursday, March 29 2007 08:22 PM (PiXy!)
Posted by: Pixy Misa at Friday, March 30 2007 01:25 AM (+7YmF)
14
I calculated how big the orbital would have to be to have a surface gravity of 1g and a rotation period of 24 hours. Unless I've screwed up (quite possible), the answer is on the order of 30 million kilometres in circumference. That could be big enough for tidal forces to be significant.
The Ringworld rotated slower than that; it had the shadow squares to generate day an night.
Posted by: Pixy Misa at Friday, March 30 2007 01:34 AM (+7YmF)
15
Well sure, but as you said, thickness is arbitray. You could do a lot in 900 km^2.
Posted by: TallDave at Wednesday, April 04 2007 02:49 AM (odS+4)
Oops thats the circumference. Why did I think it was a square lol?
So 900 long, 50 wide, about 45000 sq km (can you treat the surface of a ringworld as a rectangle?). Hmm, not that big, but you could still have an awesome water park or two.
Posted by: TallDave at Wednesday, April 04 2007 02:54 AM (odS+4)