What happened?
Twelve years!
You hit me with a cricket bat!
Ha! Twelve years!
Sunday, September 28
Who Broke the Internet?
Okay, who was it this time?
No Instapundit. No Spleenville. No Eye on the Left.
And Blogger says
Microsoft VBScript runtime error '800a0005'
Invalid procedure call or argument: 'mid'
//functions/doAutoLogin.inc, line 15
but that's no surprise.
No A Small Victory, either.
Update: Never mind, it's all better now.
Posted by: Pixy Misa at
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1
I thought it was my computer--thank goodness it was only the internet!
Posted by: Susie at Monday, September 29 2003 02:36 AM (0+cMc)
2
Well, you can't say Stevie didn't warn you.
http://caughtinthexfire.mu.nu/archives/002287.html
Posted by: LeeAnn at Monday, September 29 2003 06:19 PM (HxCeX)
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Grrr!
That Bastard Lileks™ has a dual-G5 Macintosh.
And I don't. Sniffle.
Posted by: Pixy Misa at
07:33 AM
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1
Oh no! He killed Kenny! He's a bastard!
Posted by: Susie at Sunday, September 28 2003 09:09 AM (0+cMc)
Posted by: Pixy Misa at Sunday, September 28 2003 09:12 AM (jtW2s)
3
The dual G5 is a sweet machine. It does, unfortunately, have one serious flaw. Its memory access design guarantees serious bottlenecks. I wouldn't turn one down, though, especially since I need a new server ASAP.
Posted by: Rossz at Sunday, September 28 2003 01:52 PM (43SjN)
4
Its memory access design guarantees serious bottlenecks.
I wasn't aware of that. Do you have a link to more information?
Posted by: Pixy Misa at Sunday, September 28 2003 10:29 PM (jtW2s)
5
The dual g5 system has a single memory controller, which is going to cause delays when both processors need data/instructions at the same time (and that could happen a lot) - one of them is going to have to wait. They have done a lot to optimize performance of the memory controller, which will help.
FYI, the Athlon64 processor has the memory controller built right in, so you end up with a controller for each processor. A controller for each processor is really needed for optimum performance. However, for typical use, e.g. a web server, it's not really that important. If you start running crypto cracking software or real time weather modeling, you'll want the extra performance boost.
Posted by: Rossz at Monday, September 29 2003 02:27 PM (43SjN)
6
Right. Yeah, the Opteron is a more scalable design, but the dual G5 is still better than, say, a dual Xeon system. (1GHz vs. 400 or 533MHz bus.) (Though the bus designs are somewhat different.)
I'm not sure how much of an issue this is on a dual-processor system, but it does seem to be a real problem with quad-processor Xeon boxes.
Posted by: Pixy Misa at Monday, September 29 2003 05:49 PM (jtW2s)
7
I'd have to agree. I don't particularly care for Intel designs. I always buy AMD (apples being way overpriced for what you get) - and I'll be sticking with 32-bit processors for a while, I'm afraid, since I can't justify a 64-bit processor for my needs (web server, mail server, MySQL database, etc). BTW, unless you have very specific needs such as graphics renderings, there is not a single good reason to spend the money on a G5 (or any other 64-bit system).
Ok, one good reason. The bragging rights are damn important.
Posted by: Rossz at Tuesday, September 30 2003 12:02 AM (43SjN)
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Tuesday, September 23
A Terabyte Here...
A terabyte here, a terabyte there, soon you're talking
real storage.
I recently bought myself a DVD writer so that I can do backups of my 3.5 million (or whatever the number is) files. I also ordered 100 DVD-Rs (Shintaro 4x disks, in case anyone is interested), so that I'd have something to backup to.
Meanwhile, my disks are filling up. Fill fill fill. Also, I still have six IBM Deathstar drives in use. These are the notorious GXP-75 series, which have a half-life of about 12 months. Suckiest disk drives since the days of Miniscribe.*
So I bought 6 Maxtor 120GB drives to replace the 6 45GB Deathstars. Got them cheap too, although the bargain price I got will look pretty ordinary in a month and hideously expensive in six. Only problem is, the Deathstars are in use and have stuff on them - more stuff than I have space to copy elsewhere. After all, if I still had 180GB free I wouldn't be buying more disks.**
So I need the DVDs to back up the Deathstars so I can take them out of use before they do that for themselves. Only... Only the DVDs are coming by Australia Post, who did what they are best at and lost them.
It's not the first expensive shipment that Australia Post have lost for me. The only comfort I have is that this time it's C.O.D., which means that I haven't paid for it. I still don't have the DVDs, which is a nuisance, but at least I'm not out of pocket.
The supplier managed to get confirmation from Australia Post today that yes, they (Australia Post) had lost my DVDs, and they (the supplier) are sending me another shipment. Maybe I should have suggested they put a GPS tracker on this lot.
* Not one of the computer biz's better moments:
In mid-December 1987, Miniscribe's management, with Wiles' approval and Schleibaum's assistance, engaged in an extensive cover-up which included recording the shipment of bricks as in-transit inventory. To implement the plan, Miniscribe employees first rented an empty warehouse in Boulder, Colorado, and procured ten, forty-eight foot exclusive-use trailers. They then purchased 26,000 bricks from the Colorado Brick Company.
On Saturday, December 18, 1987, Schleibaum, Taranta, Huff, Lorea and others gathered at the warehouse. Wiles did not attend. From early morning to late afternoon, those present loaded the bricks onto pallets, shrink wrapped the pallets, and boxed them.
The weight of each brick pallet approximated the weight of a pallet of disk drives. The brick pallets then were loaded onto the trailers and taken to a farm in Larimer County, Colorado.
Miniscribe's books, however, showed the bricks as in-transit inventory worth approximately $4,000,000. Employees at two of Miniscribe's buyers, CompuAdd and CalAbco, had agreed to refuse fictitious inventory shipments from Miniscribe totalling $4,000,000. Miniscribe then reversed the purported sales and added the fictitious inventory shipments into the company's inventory records.
See
here for more.
** I can't back up the Deathstars onto the Maxtors because I want to build the Maxtors into a RAID-5 array, and I have neither the drive bays nor the IDE controllers to run another six drives off my Linux box.*** I doubt the power supply would be particularly happy either.
*** Huh. Come to think of it, I do have enough IDE channels to put another six drives on that box. The cabling would be... problematic at best, so I think I'll take a pass on that.
Posted by: Pixy Misa at
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1
That would no doubt be very interesting if I had understood any of it.....
Posted by: Susie at Tuesday, September 23 2003 12:09 PM (0+cMc)
2
Do you have a spare comp? You could just create the second RAID-5 array and slap the spare onto the network and copy everything over. Also, if you could free up one of the IBMs, you might be able to use something and compress a backup version of everything on the other 5. Otherwise, I forsee a long week of DVD burning.
Posted by: Chris C. at Tuesday, September 23 2003 03:49 PM (Fuc2o)
3
I foresee a long week of DVD burning. :)
Posted by: Pixy Misa at Wednesday, September 24 2003 12:59 AM (LBXBY)
4
Have you thought about a DLT tape drive? You can get at least 80 gig per tape.
Posted by: Pete at Wednesday, September 24 2003 09:01 AM (3ENEt)
5
And they're so cheap! (Cough.)
DVD-Rs have the advantage of actually costing less than the disks they are backing up.
Posted by: Pixy Misa at Wednesday, September 24 2003 11:31 AM (jtW2s)
6
OT: Pixy, I sent you an e-mail. Please let me know if you got it.
Posted by: Jennifer at Thursday, September 25 2003 02:44 AM (LNFFk)
7
Hi Jen!
Yep, got your email. But its at home and I'm at work...
I'll get it set up tonight.
Posted by: Pixy Misa at Thursday, September 25 2003 03:05 AM (LBXBY)
Posted by: Jennifer at Thursday, September 25 2003 03:10 AM (LNFFk)
9
The dangers of not backing up. I should know better than to not back up. In fact, I had a tape drive on my Linux server so that I could automate the backup process. Too bad I could never get it to work properly. Damn windoze only software from the maker!
Two days ago my server committed suicide. The power supply blew. No problem, I thought. I'll yank the power supply from my workstation, stick it in the server to get it back up quickly, then run down to the store and get a new one for my workstation. I've been wanting a bigger one, anyway. A few minutes later I'm staring at the server wondering why the damn thing wasn't booting. Sigh. Ok, now I need to yank the video card from my workstation and stick it in the server to see why it's not booting (the server is completely headless - no video, keyboard, or mouse). It turns out the computer isn't detecting the hard drive. Sh*t! Is it the motherboard or is it the drive? I try switching the drive to to the workstation (which also requires I move the power supply and video card back). Ok, power up. Uh, oh! Not only is it not detecting the drive, the video is screwed up. Double sh*t!
In the process of moving equipment around it looks like I zapped my expensive video card - and yes, the hard drive is completely dead.
The following day I popped down to the computer store and picked up the cheapest video card they carried (US$38). The server will have to wait. I need to replace it completely. I've lost a lot of data. All my blogs, experimental firewalling code, possibly my history web pages, lots more.
I know the rule, I just didn't follow it. "Backup your system because it's not a question of 'if' the drive will fail. It's a question of 'when'."
Posted by: Rossz at Thursday, September 25 2003 12:07 PM (43SjN)
10
Ouchie. That's gotta hurt.
All my work - my music, my novel, my programs - are backed up to the server at work.
My web pages (all the mu.nu sites, in fact) are backed up twice a day to my server at home.
But I have a huge collection of... stuff... That I'd rather not lose if I can help it. Hence the DVD burner.
Posted by: Pixy Misa at Thursday, September 25 2003 12:29 PM (jtW2s)
11
Well, it gets worse. I had hoped the brand new 60 Gig Western Digital drive had survived. It didn't. It contained /home and another paritition that was used for general purpose file storage. That's where I told my wife to store all her important files for safety. Lots of irreplacable files. It's still under warranty, I suppose. Though they might argue it was "abused". One day my wife might forgive me for losing her files. I don't expect that day to be any time soon.
I called a data recovery service. It's about US$4,500 per drive. Definately not in the budget.
So who's responsible?
1. Me. I should have returned the tape drive a long time ago and found another solution instead of being pig-headed about it and continuing my fruitless attempt at getting it to work.
2. Seagate. For selling a device that is advertised as Linux compatible, but isn't (I'm not the only person who had trouble getting this piece of crap to work under linux).
3. Maxtor and Western Digitial. For leaving out a 50 cent part that would have protected the drive from a power surge.
When I can finally afford a new system, I will get a DVD burner, too. Damn, that pretty much doubled the replacement cost. I hope my job interview goes well tomorrow.
One day, old system administrators will tell my story to their grandchildren to scare them.
Posted by: Rossz at Thursday, September 25 2003 02:57 PM (43SjN)
12
That sucks :(
I've had six drives die over the past two years (poxy bloody IBM disks), but never without warning (they make horrible noises for a few days before they die) so I haven't lost anything much.
What
might work is to buy another drive of exactly the same model, and swap controller boards (on the drive itself). This has actually been done successfully at least once.
Posted by: Pixy Misa at Thursday, September 25 2003 11:18 PM (LBXBY)
13
And someone thinks that
200TB will hold all human knowledge.
Sounds like you have a good chunk of that yourself, Pixy.
Posted by: Anonymous Coward at Saturday, September 27 2003 01:30 AM (1/d9U)
14
I have had many hard drives die. It hurts. Perhaps you could get a few tips from this site.
http://www.datamole.com
Posted by: hard drive recovery at Thursday, September 30 2004 09:38 AM (RKRdf)
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Spammeriffic!
Just received three of the fake "Microsoft Update" virus spams - at an email address I didn't know I had. (Which probably explains why it wasn't properly spam-filtered.)
And 132 other assorted pieces of crap. Ranging from "Hi!" to "God Bless Pixymisa and the USA!" to the usual offers of sex and money (I'm fine for both at the moment, thanks).
Look, can't we kill just a few of them? Y'know, set an example?
Posted by: Pixy Misa at
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Friday, September 19
Ahoy There!
That scurvy bilge-rat of a server I mentioned yesterday, me hearties, is now booting more-or-less happily. I guess that threatening to make it walk the plank did the trick.
Arrr!
Only thing is, it insists on doing a full file-system check first. Shiver me disk drives! With 1.6 terabytes of disk, that takes a while.
Posted by: Pixy Misa at
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1
Buck up, matey! Ye 'll have plenty o time ta drink yer grog!
Posted by: Susie at Friday, September 19 2003 11:16 PM (SM1Wt)
2
Good point, Cap'n Susie!
Now if only I had some grog...
Arrr arr ar.
Posted by: Pixy Misa at Saturday, September 20 2003 12:20 AM (LBXBY)
3
Shiver me disk drives indeed!
Best pirate speak yet.
hln
Posted by: hln at Saturday, September 20 2003 12:42 PM (CWwGn)
4
Me dear wife shut down me router at the first bell of the middle watch. I was forced to slit the wench from gizzard to gullet with my cultless when I awoke this morn.
More grog!
Me bilge rat of a daughter refuses to speak like a proper pirate this day! Perhaps a keel hauling will change her temperament.
Where's me bleedin' grog!
Posted by: DreadPirateRossz at Saturday, September 20 2003 01:07 PM (43SjN)
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Uh-Oh
My PC, it will not boot.
I rm'd * while su root.
Well, actually, I didn't. I've always wanted to try that, but I've never had a box I didn't care about at a time when I had the time to play around.
I think it just overheated. Spring has well and truly sprung here in Sydney, but the office air conditioning is still set to Winter. So it's really not surprising that the computers are finding it a bit on the warm side.
And it's not really my PC, it's one of the servers. The one with a terabyte of data on it, to be precise.
Poot.
I've left it turned off overnight, and tomorrow I will return armed with a 30cm fan, an extension lead so we can position it somewhere a little cooler... And my Linux install CDs, because I'm not that much of an optimist.
Posted by: Pixy Misa at
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1
It can't be spring because it is fall.
;-)
Posted by: Jennifer at Friday, September 19 2003 08:47 AM (rZmE1)
2
Once a friend was setting up a Linux box on a box. It was his first time. I was giving him some instructions via irc. I typed "rm -rf /*" as a joke, and then typed"just kidding, don't do that", except I was too late. On the other hand, he did learn how dangerous being logged in as root can be.
Posted by: Rossz at Friday, September 19 2003 11:50 AM (43SjN)
3
I really need to wait until AFTER my morning coffee before posting, or learn to proof-read when half asleep.
Posted by: Rossz at Friday, September 19 2003 11:52 AM (43SjN)
4
He's still your friend? Wow.
Posted by: Victor at Friday, September 19 2003 12:04 PM (FNHVL)
5
Well, Jennifer, this is where it gets confusing. You see, down here, September comes in March, so it really is Spring. Also, while you are still in 2003, we're already in 2020. The only people ahead of us are the Kiwis, who don't really matter that much even if they did beat us in last year's Americas Cup race to Pluto.
Posted by: Pixy Misa at Friday, September 19 2003 12:48 PM (jtW2s)
6
You forgot to tell her about your drains swirling backwards because you are upside down....
Posted by: Susie at Friday, September 19 2003 01:08 PM (SM1Wt)
7
That's because they don't. It's a myth.
Our drains swirl
upwards. Something of a problem, that.
Posted by: Pixy Misa at Friday, September 19 2003 01:18 PM (jtW2s)
8
Definitely a myth. See this site for explanation: http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a1_161
I see a Science at Home forming on this - or not...
Posted by: Daniel at Friday, September 19 2003 04:41 PM (Oc6V9)
9
Our drains swirl upwards. Something of a problem, that.
So, you have toilet towels instead of toilet paper, right?
Posted by: Victor at Friday, September 19 2003 04:43 PM (FNHVL)
Posted by: Jennifer at Friday, September 19 2003 07:02 PM (rZmE1)
11
Back in the 80's (when dinosaurs ruled the earth) I was sitting at a terminal - before PC's you went to the terminal room to work - and just happened to glance at the next guy's screen. He typed "RM COBOLV", hit return, logged off and left. Ten minutes later the Military Police were there, looking for the guy who deleted the Cobol compiler. It was scary thinking that we had that kind of power as a default, and the only hope was to hope we never thought to try something so stupid.
Posted by: Ted at Friday, September 19 2003 08:35 PM (2sKfR)
12
I remember terminals!
Only I was one of those nasty egg-stealing little Unix rodents.
Posted by: Pixy Misa at Friday, September 19 2003 10:49 PM (LBXBY)
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Wednesday, September 10
Feces-Flinging DRM
Feces Flinging Monkey (no,
not Ethel, a different one) has a
rather depressing look at digital rights management (DRM) and how it will destroy civilisation.
What he fails to consider is that all DRM is ultimately doomed for the simple reason that DRM is digital and humans are analogue. Can't rip an MP3 of that song? Play it back and record it again. So you lose a little quality. Can't cut-and-paste that article from the New York Times? Well, you can read it, yes? You can type, yes?
And so on. Which doesn't mean that the DRM-types aren't evil - they are evil, no question - just that DRM isn't going to bring about the heat death of the universe.
That's my job.
I would have left a comment at the Monkey's blog, but his comments don't work right now. Funny how that happens to the not-Munuvians.
Posted by: Pixy Misa at
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Um, how come you have a "more" link but there's no more?
Can I help "bring about the heat death of the universe" in my capacity as Linkmistress of Chaos?
Dang, now I'm going to be late for work! :(
Posted by: Susie at Wednesday, September 10 2003 03:22 PM (SM1Wt)
2
There's more, you just can't get to it... Now there's a bug if ever I saw one. Or at least a misfeature.
Run, Susie, run!
Posted by: Pixy Misa at Wednesday, September 10 2003 09:20 PM (jtW2s)
3
Hi...it's me. Thank you for inviting me to get off Blogsplat and into the real world. Just tell me what I need to do...and, bear in mind that I am a computer-illiterate blonde. I can't even fix my stupid template. Linking from Blogspot gives me pin-point bleeds in my brain. I downloaded MT once and didn't get anywhere with it. Of course, at the time I was using a computer that was at least 10 years old. I'd like to try it again.
Honestly, I'm starting to feel like a blog on blogspot is like cubic zirconia. Pretty, but not real. Besides, in the not-too-distant-future, I fear there'll only be me and a few crickets left at blogspot.
In case it doesn't show up for you and you need it, my email address is srv200163 at Yahoo dot com.
Thank you again and I sincerely hope my ineptitude doesn't make you regret this...
(I gotta go warn Ted that I'm probably gonna need his help with this.)
Posted by: Stevie at Thursday, September 11 2003 01:14 AM (AJ0RC)
4
The "play it and record it again" trick is called "the analog hole" by the recording industry. DRM is specifically designed to deal with this.
It works like this: you get your music and play it, re-record it, write a nice unprotected MP3... and nobody can listen to your new MP3, because DRM machines won't play media that doesn't have a DRM authorization. Obviously, if they did allow old MP3s to play, the analog hole would remain open and the entire system would quickly implode, just as you described.
A full-bore DRM machine will not run unauthorised programs. Authorised programs will not open unauthorised media. That's how it works.
Sorry...
Posted by: Mike Spenis at Thursday, September 11 2003 10:39 PM (43gaF)
5
Good point. So either (a) we need to fake DRM (which will be illegal, if it isn't already) or (b) we need to keep our old machines that actually work.
Mind you, a full-strength universal DRM requires a level of totalitarian government and big-business control that is utterly terrifying far beyond the mere inability to play music when we want to.
As I said, the backers of DRM are evil. I wasn't engaging in hyperbole - these people want to control your thoughts. Literally. I think you at least realise that.
This needs more though than I can give it right now. I'll come back to it soon.
Posted by: Pixy Misa at Thursday, September 11 2003 10:47 PM (jtW2s)
6
So either (a) we need to fake DRM (which will be illegal, if it isn't already) or (b) we need to keep our old machines that actually work.
Faking DRM is pretty hard - the core of it uses something called public key encryption, which, if properly implemented, is essentially unbreakable. The implementation will certainly have some flaws which could be exploited, but as those flaws are discovered, they would be fixed. Eventually, it would not be practical to fake it out.
Older machines (or, for that matter, Linux machines) will serve you well until they are no longer able to connect to the internet. In my opinion, DRM will eventually be required by the ISPs before they let you on. You could still play your own music files, but you would no longer be able to trade them.
Posted by: Mike Spenis at Friday, September 12 2003 09:53 AM (3bPQJ)
7
We need a common blog for this :)
As you say, DRM builds on public key encryption. But that in itself is not enough. With public key encryption, you can do one of two things: encrypt something with someones public key so that only they can read it, or encrypt something with your own private key so that others can verify that it came from you.
Now, where are these keys going to come from? People can't be allowed to make their own, as they'll just share them when they need to share files. And you'd have to rely on people keeping and never losing their key. It would be a nightmare for the media companies.
No, it's going to be implemented in hardware like DVD region codes, and kept as a trade secret. (Patents won't work - though aspects of it will be patented. Copyright is completely useless.)
So every machine that can play digital media - everything from watches to phones to cars to fridges - has to be replaced with a DRM-locked version. And that trade secret has to remain secure and unhacked or the whole thing is screwed.
As for the analog hole: The only way to block it is to take away - forever - many things that people can do right now and indeed have been able to do for years, things that are taken as very basic functionality in a huge variety of devices. Rather than preventing people releasing their own DRM'd stuff copied through the analog hole, they could instead track this - if they had a global registry of every DRM-capable recording device and who owned each one.
As I said before, the really scary part is not DRM itself, but the level of legislation and policing required to make it leakproof. George Orwell was a piker compared to these guys.
tom beta 2's point on opponents is a good one: China and Taiwan and many developing countries have a rather relaxed view of copyright laws and would love to build a profitable industry selling DRM circumvention devices.
Posted by: Pixy Misa at Friday, September 12 2003 10:16 AM (jtW2s)
8
We need a common blog for this
Aw, what the heck. It's easy to cut-and-paste.
You made a good point about embedded keys. I don't know exactly how DRM would address this problem. If they do embed keys, they are going to have to deal, somehow, with these keys being uncovered.
As I understand it, users have keys, too. They are tied to your name and credit card, and are used to originally purchace the copyrighted work. If you trade away your key, your name and card go with it...
WRT overseas competition, that goes away as soon as DRM becomes part of the law. Just as nobody tries to sell radios that aren't FCC compliant, nobody will try to sell non-DRM hardware, either. Even if they did, it, like the older hardware, would probably be excluded from the internet anyway.
Posted by: Mike Spenis at Friday, September 12 2003 01:11 PM (W64Mu)
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When You Care Enough
Darl McBride, Chief Shitferret at SCO (member of the Axis of Bloody Nuisances), has posted an
open letter to the Open Source Community. Not surprisingly, the letter is filled with mistruths and untruths and has generated appropriate levels of flamage at sites like
Slashdot.
There's also a feedback feature at LinuxWorld's site, where the letter is posted. This is what came up when I stopped by:
127 feedback items so far - last one posted 9 September 2003 12:08 PM
* Aaron Graves commented ...
Open Letter from Aaron Graves to SCO:
Dear Mr. McBride;
Go fuck yourself.
Sincerely,
Aaron Graves
That sums up the mood of the Open Source Community nicely.
Meanwhile, fellow Axis of Bloody Nuisances member the RIAA has taken to filing lawsuits against twelve-year-old girls. Nice move, public-relations-wise.
Posted by: Pixy Misa at
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A TWELVE-YEAR-OLD GIRL? They really are idiots. That just makes me so angry. Thanks for bringing this article to my attention.
Posted by: Wanderer at Wednesday, September 10 2003 04:05 PM (hnF59)
2
I love that term: shitferret. I've long been searching for a catch-all word to sum up my exes.
And the post was very informative too.
Thanks. :)
Posted by: LeeAnn at Wednesday, September 10 2003 05:42 PM (HxCeX)
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Saturday, September 06
Oops
Note to self: If you are setting up a mail server, and using it to receive twice-daily backups of your website, and then you decide not to retrieve those backups from the mail server so that they just lie around, your spool partition will fill up and
you will stop receiving mail!
So if anyone had anything important to say to me in the last few hours, please say it again, 'cause it might have got losted.
Posted by: Pixy Misa at
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1
How small is your spool partition? It's either tiny or your web backups are huge. If so, don't backup everything each time. Just grab the comments since that's the only thing that should be changing.
If you're using Exim, it would be very easy to directly archive the email upon receipt. If you don't actually look at this stuff all the time, this would be the simple solution. Just create an email account specifically for this purpose and add a router that archives the email to a different partition (I can show you how, if you wish).
If you're using Microsoft Exchange, you deserve whatever problems you get.
Posted by: Rossz at Sunday, September 07 2003 05:19 PM (43SjN)
2
My spool partition is only 500MB. The backups are about 15MB per day. The web site is about 1GB :)
I'm using Postfix, by the way. I just made a spool directory on a bigger partition and symlinked it back to /var/spool/mail and everything's happy again.
Posted by: Pixy Misa at Sunday, September 07 2003 11:13 PM (jtW2s)
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Tuesday, September 02
CSS Clueless
Steven Den Beste has lately been wrestling with both
CSS (Cascading Stylesheets) and
a new version of City Desk (his blogging software) that helpfully rewrites your HTML for you - and indeed, can't be prevented from doing so.
Being an engineer, he discusses City Desk in the context of intrusive tools. An intrusive tool is one that you are constantly aware of using. Notepad, for example, is not an intrusive tool; it sits there and you type stuff into it. Word is very much an intrusive tool, with its pop-up advice and its real-time spelling-error-generator and its fourth-grade reading-level grammarbot. I hate Word; I use Lotus WordPro for any serious writing (my book, for example) because it's not intrusive; despite having just as many bells and whistles as Word, it does exactly what you tell it to and shuts up otherwise.
I find CSS to be an intrusive tool too, not because it beeps and squawks at you (it can't), but because as soon as you try to do anything complicated, it stops working the way it should. Setting up the three-column layout was a huge pain with Internet Explorer; I tried three different ways of doing it - all of which worked fine in Mozilla - before stumbling across something that IE accepted. I don't know if the fault is with the specification or Mozilla or IE, but CSS is clearly not ready for use when it takes trial and error, and in the end, arcane trickery, to make something that really is fairly simple, work. And I ended up with two different stylesheets anyway, and JavaScript code to select the (hopefully) right one based on what browser you are using. (Try looking at the site in both Mozilla and IE - the IE stylesheet is different because I can't be bothered keeping both versions up to date.)
For the new layout I'm considering using tables instead. HTML purists will tell you that using tables for layout is a heinous crime, but I say to the purists: Go piss up a rope.* Tables do what you tell them to, where CSS does whatever the hell it feels like. I get enough of that from people; I don't feel like dealing with it in software as well.
* Where does this expression come from, anyway?**
** Never mind, I googled.***
*** Okay, okay: GO PISS UP A ROPE by 1940s: Go away and do something characteristically stupid; ="get lost", "go fly a kite". "He asked for another contribution and I told him to go piss up a rope." (Chapman’s Dictionary of American Slang)****
**** I also found an ad for "Urine Porn". Some days you're torn between "To each his own" and "Ewwww".*****
***** I'm finished now, Tiger, you can have them back.
Posted by: Pixy Misa at
10:28 AM
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1
How is this a problem with CSS and not with IE? They way I understand it, Gecko/Mozilla are fully compliant with CSS and the new standards, while IE is sort of hackish.
Posted by: Chris C. at Thursday, September 04 2003 09:17 AM (do/71)
2
Simple: You can't just use CSS, because it's just a spec and doesn't
do anything. You have to use it as it's implemented in browsers. And given that most people use IE, that means that CSS is mostly broken.
Posted by: Pixy Misa at Thursday, September 04 2003 09:36 AM (jtW2s)
3
This is something of a semantic argument, but that means IE is broken, not CSS. That is, when browsers interpret CSS correctly, it does what it's supposed to. I realize that functionally, there's no difference, but the problem isn't in the CSS spec.
Posted by: Chris C. at Thursday, September 04 2003 11:48 AM (do/71)
4
What I'm getting at is that a browser/html engine that implements the CSS spec correctly (ie, Mozilla/Gecko, at least by their claim), everything works fine when you try to do something with CSS. The fact that an incorrect interpretation of CSS (ie, in IE) breaks doesn't make the spec any less
valid. Less useful, perhaps, but not less
valid and further, it doesn't mean that the spec itself isn't ready for deployment. I can write a C compiler that breaks when it reads valid ANSI C code. Does that mean ANSI C isn't ready to be deployed? For that matter, iirc, Visual C++/Visual Studio doesn't handle GNU C++ or ANSI C++ correctly in some instances. Does that mean neither of those specs is ready to be deployed?
Posted by: Chris C. at Thursday, September 04 2003 11:58 AM (do/71)
5
That's a fair comment. I found that in Mozilla, the obvious implementation or a layout generally worked; in IE, it generally was completely screwed up.
I don't particularly
like the CSS spec (actually, I think CSS is horrid), but I think you're right that that is not where the main problem lies.
But if 90% of your audience uses non-ANSI-compliant C compilers that break on your code, ANSI C is not ready for use. Ready for
implementation, yes, but not for use. And that's where we are with CSS right now. Happy day if I could get everyone in the world to switch to Mozilla...
Posted by: Pixy Misa at Thursday, September 04 2003 12:30 PM (jtW2s)
6
Yeah, I actually misspoke (mistyped?). I meant that it was ready for implementation, that it could be used and that the spec worked. It isn't ready for deployment because the major browser doesn't implement it correctly.
That said, why don't you like CSS. I'm by no means well versed, but what I've seen of the theory (divorcing formatting from content) and some of the demos for Mozilla, it seems useful.
Posted by: Chris C. at Thursday, September 04 2003 12:38 PM (do/71)
7
The idea is excellent, and the things that can be achieved with it in a working implementation can be both useful and very cool.
Probably "horrid" was too strong... I still have scars from my battle with IE a couple of months back. That and the spec, which is less detailed than it could be when you get into the more advanced layout functions - which made it hard to tell whether my stylesheet was at fault or IE's implementation.
I don't particularly like the actual CSS language at the moment, but I'll probably get used to it...
Posted by: Pixy Misa at Thursday, September 04 2003 12:47 PM (jtW2s)
8
If you take Internet Exploder® out of the equation and design your web pages for browsers that stick to the accepted stards (e.g.
Mozilla), CSS is great. It's when you have to try every sneaky little obscure trick you can think of to get IE to render a page half-assed legible that CSS is such a chore.
Posted by: Rossz at Friday, September 05 2003 09:17 PM (43SjN)
9
You're both probably right. As soon as the wounds heal, I'll give CSS another try.
Posted by: Pixy Misa at Friday, September 05 2003 10:52 PM (LBXBY)
10
Say I have two tools for making chairs. With one of the tools, the chair will collapse when some people sit in it. Which tool should I use to make a chair? There's no point in making a fancy chair that doesn't work.
Posted by: Tony at Sunday, September 07 2003 05:50 PM (CUi1V)
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