Well that's good. Fantastic. That gives us 20 minutes to save the world and I've got a post office. And it's shut!
Friday, August 05
Flame War Thread
Rules:
Rules:
1. Nominate your choice for the most overrated anime series of all time.
2. Disagree violently with all the other nominations.
3. If anyone comes along and calls us geeks or something like that, dogpile!
Posted by: Pixy Misa at
04:54 AM
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1
Geek! (Just cutting to the chase, here....)
Posted by: Susie at Friday, August 05 2005 09:58 AM (PWYyH)
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Hmmmm, that's tough, because those of us in the US have really limited exposure to real anime, and most of what is available is of the children's variety. So most people never develop a real love of the artform - certainly not enough to actuallty spend money on titles not on Cartoon network to learn for themselves.
Having said all of that - I nominate Sailor Moon as most over hyped.
My personal favorite that did air on cable TV - Hellsing
Most visually pleasing full length feature - Spirited Away. Although I'm a big fan of Ghost in the Shell as well.
Posted by: Neal at Friday, August 05 2005 10:31 AM (OdCKj)
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Before looking at the other comments, obviously - Evangelion. There are people out there that think that it's the culmination of otaku culture and aesthetics, but I can't help but see it as a decent, highly derivative mecha show that loses narrative traction in the second half of the season and then totally disintegrates into a psychiatric purple haze in the last few episodes.
Now having looked at the response - oh, come on! No one seriously offers Sailor Moon as an example of great art or great culture! It's a mahou shoujo/sentai hybrid. It is, as far as I can tell, the first mahou shoujo/sentai anime- though there might be other manga precursors that I'm not personally familiar with - since mahou shoujo and sentai are anime and rubber-suit-show genres, respectively, that's not particularly likely. As a subgenre first, that puts Sailor Moon one up on, oh, say, Evangelion.
And we get most of the good, decent, passable, and marginal new anime here in North America, sooner or later. That goes for both the more adult stuff and the kiddie stuff, although frankly, I think we get much less of the real kiddie stuff - all those horrible, interchangeable "Brave" giant robot shows which they crank out season after season, ferinstance. What we don't get as much of is the older stuff, the shows with the dated visual sense and older-fashioned sensibilities. Touch, for instance. And that's for a reason - they often look dated, even to Western eyes. And they've yet to figure out how to market the non-SF-ish genres to the North American market - look how little of a splash Hajime no Ippo/Fighting Spirit made last year.
All observations for the North American market. Dunno much about the Australian market except for the fact that you have a licensing company named Madman - which is, to my mind, a deeply cool corporate name.
Posted by: Mitch H. at Friday, August 05 2005 11:13 AM (iTVQj)
4
Ha! Mitch - you've obviously never tried to find anime in Baton Rouge, Louisiana. Which is what led me to put the conditions on my post that I did. Most decent anime may eventually come to north America, but it doesn't come to all parts of North America equally. And, if all you see is the crap on TV, then you're unlikely to ever want to go out and learn more about it.
Posted by: Neal at Friday, August 05 2005 11:27 AM (H37Gq)
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Does Pokemon count as anime? If so, there's my vote.
Huzzah!
Posted by: sadie at Friday, August 05 2005 02:04 PM (7SNDe)
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Neal - what, you don't get the Internet in Baton Rouge? How are you posting - telekinesis? Or, for that matter, a Best Buy or a SunCoast? I live in a small town in central Pennsylvania, AKA "the Alabama of the North". "China's in the heart, Jack. Wherever I go, she's with me." Or, at least, not too far away to reach via mail-order.
sadie: yes, it counts. It even counts as kiddie anime. But you'll have to provide an example of somebody rating it, let alone over-rating it, first. Pokemon sucks almost as much as its reputation would lead you to think, I believe. Which would mean that it's technically underrated, but come on, it's Pokemon. Who cares? It's the Barney of anime.
Posted by: Mitch H. at Friday, August 05 2005 04:26 PM (iTVQj)
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Sailor Moon? Evangelion? Pokemon?
Bah!
What about... What about... Uh.
Let me get back to you.
Posted by: Pixy Misa at Friday, August 05 2005 05:56 PM (4N+SC)
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There can be only one:
DRAGONBALL (and all it's attendent spinoffs).
I'm surprised there's even a discussion about this. Nothing else can even be in the same pungent room. Though Ikkitousen comes pretty close. It loses on sheer quantity... 26 episodes pales when compared to... what, 300+?
Oh, and Sailor Moon and Pokemon are actually pretty decent in their original forms.
Posted by: Wonderduck at Friday, August 05 2005 08:26 PM (86QII)
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Yes, Mitch - I'm posting by telekinesis.
Posted by: Neal at Friday, August 05 2005 09:00 PM (pdiJG)
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I gota hit InuYasha. It's hard for me to even sit through 1 episode, completely diregard that there are 153. Yeesh.
Hellsing kicked ass, as did the first 60 or so episodes of Ruroni Kenshin. The last 30 blew. Bigtime.
DB was a good gateway, but it gets old quite fast.
Sailor Moon was likewise a good show for a 13 year old boy *g*. but only for god's sake with the sound off.
If we want to talk just plain wierd, you gotta hit FLCL. I liked it, but mainly because i understand it when i'm drunk.
:-D
Posted by: tommy at Friday, August 05 2005 10:00 PM (OJ+GI)
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I'm with WonderDuck: Dragonball.
Posted by: phin at Friday, August 05 2005 10:07 PM (DGPlf)
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I think Ikkitousen only has 13 eps, so the suckage would have to be more concentrated. (I haven't seen the anime; the manga doesn't seem to be too bad.)
Posted by: Pixy Misa at Friday, August 05 2005 10:21 PM (AIaDY)
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Pixy, the way one pronounces Ikkitousen gives you a good idea about the show: Icky-Tow-Sen. And icky it is. As the good folks at THEM Anime put it, it's a pantyfight show... as in, "Panty. Fight! Panty. Fight!"
Which would be okay, I suppose, if there was any merit to the show.
There are only 13? I must have just felt like I was sitting through 26...
Posted by: Wonderduck at Friday, August 05 2005 10:54 PM (G2sf8)
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Ahhhh, Ruroni Kenshin is a classic.
Posted by: Neal at Friday, August 05 2005 11:09 PM (lhVve)
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I thought Dragonball was a nice little series. Dragonball Z, on the otherhand, was a worthless bloated pile of crap.
Posted by: Pixy Misa at Saturday, August 06 2005 12:06 AM (AIaDY)
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I agree with calling Evangelion the most overrated series. From the way people talk, you would think it was 26 episodes of Shakespearean classics! Unfortunately it's just a poor mishmash of pseudo-intellectual dialogue and teenage angst.
Posted by: Jojo at Saturday, August 06 2005 12:37 AM (08+db)
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Based on my own experience, the two series which were most hyped to me by others making recommendations, and in which I was the most disappointed, are Evangelion and...
(wait for it)
...Cowboy Bebop. It's been a year and a half since the last time I've watched Bebop and I doubt I'll ever watch it again. (On the other hand, I have rewatched the Bebop movie several times. Isn't that strange? Actually, no, because the movie left all the angst and disfunction behind.)
Based on the reviews, I also expected a lot more from Gasaraki than I actually got. What a piece of shit!
I happen to be a big fan of DBZ, but I won't defend it as being great art. It's trash; it's just that it's my kind of trash.
Posted by: Steven Den Beste at Saturday, August 06 2005 01:08 AM (CJBEv)
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Bebop is a wonderful show... once. Nobody in the Anime Club that I formed at Duck U. wants to revisit it, though it's been months upon months since anybody's seen it. So you're far from the only one with that reaction, SDB. I thought it was just our group!
Everybody likes it, but not enough to, y'know, watch it or anything.
Posted by: Wonderduck at Saturday, August 06 2005 01:27 AM (G2sf8)
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I agree that Bebop is a wonderful show to watch once. Steven's right, it's the angst and disfunction. There's lots of great stuff in there, but no-one wants to wallow in pre-loved angst. Angst once can be interesting, angst twice is just annoying.
Assuming that you're not between the ages of, say, fourteen and fifteen.
Posted by: Pixy Misa at Saturday, August 06 2005 02:25 AM (AIaDY)
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P.S. Hi Steven! Hope things are going well for you.
Posted by: Pixy Misa at Saturday, August 06 2005 02:25 AM (AIaDY)
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Worst show isn't too hard to think about (Brain Powerd, anyone?) - but most overrated one? This practically requires something that is widely known and loved, and there's not that many on this side of the ocean...
Fine. Akira it is. The animation is gorgeous, but that shouldn't be enough, and isn't - or people would speak in equally hushed tones about about On Your Mark. It is an incoherent abridgement of a much, much, larger manga plotline: it is, essentially, X - the movie, but with a reputation befitting another Spirited Away.
Evangelion is a worthy nomination. An effective execution right up to the end - and then, instead of an ending that gives meaning to all that came before, you get... well, quite a disappointment.
I don't want to go off topic too much, but CB deserves a good word. Bebop is a good show - once or twice through. Some genres, some works, lend themselves less to rereading; unless generally well-rated specifically for rewatchability, it doesn't seem overrated to me.
Most of the other nominations don't seem to be rated highly enough to be 'most overrated', whatever my opinion of their technical merits.
Posted by: HC at Saturday, August 06 2005 04:11 AM (aq1uU)
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I'm probably one of those people overrating Cowboy Bebop, but I'm a real sucker for Yohko Kanno BGM, and I loved the hell out of "Ballad of Fallen Angels". As an overall series, it isn't exactly ringing down the heavens, though. It's just a hipster freakout.
I've gone around the course a half-dozen times on Akira. First, it was the coolest thing my post-adolescent mind had ever been blown with. Then it was overhyped and badly dubbed, and fit to be mocked with great enthusiasm. Then, again, the Japanese original was subtle and brilliant and profound. Then, after I realized this particular sentiment was just fanboy bollocks, Akira was crap again, and I was haring off after Mamoru Oshii and Angel's Egg. I think I've gotten to the point where Akira is a technical marvel of the past, sort of like the 1939 New York World's Fair, or the Crystal Pavilion, and thus something to be considered in the spirit of historic investigation, and not immediate aesthetic responses.
Now Castle of Cagliostro, that still rocks, regardless of how old it is.
Stuff like Dragonball, or it's contemporary equivalent, Naruto, are critic-proof. I'm not sure those sorts of shows can even be rated in an aesthetic or critical sense.
Posted by: Mitch H. at Saturday, August 06 2005 09:40 AM (iTVQj)
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Yes, but we're not discussing aesthetics here, we're flaming for the most OVERRATED series. If we were hunting for the worst anime, anybody could bring up EIKEN and leave it at that, but most haven't heard of it.
Oh, and I want Yoko Kanno to do the soundtrack to my blog.
Posted by: Wonderduck at Saturday, August 06 2005 12:05 PM (+rGmJ)
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Dragonball Z would count if it actually had been hyped as being a high quality product. Otherwise I'll add to the dogpile on Cowboy Bebop which is equally tedious no matter how many times I try to sit through even one episode. It looks great, but it's all style and barely any substance. Those guys have done a much better job with Samurai Champloo.
X by Amano is also dull and overrated.
The best current series (yes, I watch Cartoon Network as well as getting anime on my own) is Paranoia Agent.
Akira is still cool, but you have to pause it and read all the manga to fill in the story that they couldn't possibly fit in to a feature-length film, before you watch the ending. It's like Nausicäa of the Valley of the Wind: there's far too much story to pack into two or three hours. It will inevitably end up getting losing its way.
X by Amano is also dull and overrated.
The best current series (yes, I watch Cartoon Network as well as getting anime on my own) is Paranoia Agent.
Akira is still cool, but you have to pause it and read all the manga to fill in the story that they couldn't possibly fit in to a feature-length film, before you watch the ending. It's like Nausicäa of the Valley of the Wind: there's far too much story to pack into two or three hours. It will inevitably end up getting losing its way.
Posted by: David at Saturday, August 06 2005 02:24 PM (c162X)
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Yes, but the Nausicäa movie works on its own merits. It has an intact story - kind of messianic, and a bit hackneyed, but an operational narrative. The manga is just more adventurous, is all.
The Akira anime really... doesn't work on its own. It fades out into a 2001 burst of irrelevant abstraction, y'know?
I really do recommend Angel's Egg, if you can find it. Oshii recycled a lot of the imagery from that movie into his later, more commercial movies, but it doesn't have all that miserable yammer-yammer-yammer that he's prone to inflict on his audiences. Angel's Egg is like a Christian-themed hour-and-a-half-long dream sequence. Cool as hell. Shame it never got licensed in North America, aside from a Roger Corman drive-by about fifteen years back.
Posted by: Mitch H. at Saturday, August 06 2005 05:13 PM (iTVQj)
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hands down, most overrated = Dragon Ball
Sickest anime i've ever seen is: 3x3 Eyes.
then again, i haven't seen much anime. in high school, i was stuck on Gundam Wing for a year.
Posted by: kyer at Saturday, August 06 2005 05:51 PM (CME4l)
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Angel's egg is very neat, as is Yoko Kanno - though she can't save everything. She did the music for Brain Powerd, for instance, which I would still hold out as the worst anime ever done. It may lack the vulgarity of Eiken, but it failed on a much grander scale. Think Ishtar.
Regardless, to cite Samurai Champloo as a positive contrast with Cowboy Bebop because Bebop is all style and no substance is beyond me. In that respect, there is not a pin to choose between them. Champloo is occasionally magnificent, and does stand up to rewatch better than Cowboy Bebop - but this is precisely because it is so purely style without substance. It is just plain fun to watch the pretty colors go by - at least on those occasions when they don't go overboard with the stylized anachronisms.
Posted by: HC at Saturday, August 06 2005 05:58 PM (jJC6e)
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Boy, some flame war. I'm disappointed.
Posted by: Steven Den Beste at Tuesday, August 09 2005 11:01 PM (CJBEv)
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Yeah, that's a real problem with this blog. Too many intelligent and mature readers and too few irrational fanboys.
No, wait -
Posted by: Pixy Misa at Wednesday, August 10 2005 01:37 AM (AIaDY)
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Dood! DBZ RAWKS!!! ITZ TEH BOM! U LOOSER!
(sheesh, it's hard to even act like that...)
Posted by: Wonderduck at Wednesday, August 10 2005 04:02 PM (+rGmJ)
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as far as i'm concerned, akira so sux! i was told that it is one of the two "must see" animes, Ghost in the Shell being the other--i've watched akira twice and i don't get it--is because it is woefully dated, or because i'm a girl? Or because there was nothing there to start with?
and gosh, i adore DBZ and Inuyasha.
junk food taste, i guess.
;-)
Posted by: matoko kusanagi at Thursday, August 11 2005 04:51 PM (PDOu0)
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It has been quiet in here.
Here's a suggestion for an addendum to the rules:
4. When submitting candidates for most overrated anime series, do not fail to mention one's own favorite anime series (up to n, where n is some arbitrary prime number pleasing to Pixy Misa), with reasoning lengthy enough to be assailable.
5. Any series mentioned in accordance with 4 is fair game for criticism as being overrated or lacking in quality for any other reason, but all such criticisms must be made with reference to another anime as measuring stick.
Refutation is all very well, but the best defense is a good offense; courtesy dictates that you provide your sparring partner with a target for such.
I can't say whether that would stir the pot sufficiently, but there is a means somewhere out there.
Posted by: HC at Thursday, August 11 2005 05:40 PM (vXg7G)
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i say....down with akira!!!
Ghost and Innosensu should be the two animes one needs to see to become an otaku!
Posted by: matoko kusanagi at Thursday, August 11 2005 11:26 PM (JREvR)
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ha! HC, how 'bout choose the three animes one needs to see to become an otaku!
Posted by: matoko kusanagi at Friday, August 12 2005 02:02 AM (JREvR)
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The three animes one needs have seen to become an otaku? Hmmm... well, if'n y'all ask this ol' duck, I'd say Ranma 1/2, Ghost In The Shell and Bubblegum Crisis 2032.
If you've seen those, you're a long-time otaku. If you saw them on videotape, you're an old otaku. If you saw them on a fan-subbed video tape, you're an ancient otaku. If you actually did the fansubbing yourself, you're an ancient, crazy otaku.
Posted by: Wonderduck at Friday, August 12 2005 04:52 AM (HoSBk)
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Ranma 1/2
Check. But I'd put Maison Ikkoku or Urusei Yatsura here.
Ghost In The Shell
Haven't seen it. Have read the manga, though.
Bubblegum Crisis 2032
Bubblegum Crisis what? You mean the original OVA series, right? The sequel was 2040. Okay then.
Yes, BGC rocked.
If you saw them on videotape, you're an old otaku.
Whistles tunelessly... Notices he hasn't mentioned laserdiscs. Relaxes.
If you saw them on a fan-subbed video tape, you're an ancient otaku.
I didn't get into fansubs until they went digital, so at least I'm not ancient!
Posted by: Pixy Misa at Friday, August 12 2005 05:52 AM (AIaDY)
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Laserdiscs are OK, as long as they're CLV. If they're CAV, then you really are a relic.
Posted by: Steven Den Beste at Friday, August 12 2005 09:54 AM (CJBEv)
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What if you subtitled an obscure Kadokawa movie called Weathering Continent? Back in the day, it was how you made your bones in fandom. Find a raw script, find a source, borrow an Amiga with a genlock, and go to town. Since timed sub files are fungible, if you had a set of LDs, your group had a library of high-quality fansubs usable as currency in the trade for other cool stuff. We did Dirty Pair: Project Eden, Macross: Do You Remember Love, a few episodes of Maison Ikkoku, Char's Counterattack, etc.
Good old Quest Labs Hyperspatial Research Division.
Oh, Ghost in the Shell sucks rocks. It's what Oshii made after he lost his balls. Nothing he's made after the second Patlabor movie has been worth wiping one's ass clean with. He was ever so much better when somebody had him chained in a basement directing genre rubbish like Patlabor and Urusei Yatsura.
Posted by: Mitch H. at Friday, August 12 2005 10:00 AM (iTVQj)
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Steven: CLV, yeah. I don't think I have any CAV discs.
Mitch: Had the Amiga, never had the genlock though. I did have a fan group ask if they could borrow some of my LDs, but nothing ever came of it.
By the way, if you consider Urusei Yatsura to be genre rubbish, I have to ask - what genre?
Posted by: Pixy Misa at Friday, August 12 2005 10:27 AM (4N+SC)
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SF-high school comedy. Don't get me wrong, I love the movies (well, some of the movies - mostly the second, third, and fourth 'uns) and some of the OAVs. But there's a lot of crap UY out there, and a lot of it's about two steps up from Benny Hill. I blame UY and Rumiko Takahashi for giving us the harem show, although the dominant form is almost an inversion of what she did...
If you don't think SF high school comedy is a genre, then I offer you as an example Ben Dunn. There was some role-playing game based on the concept which somebody got me to play once, back in college. Can't remember the name of it off the top of my head...
Posted by: Mitch H. at Friday, August 12 2005 11:29 AM (iTVQj)
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I think there are quite a few episodes in the TV series that are really good. Mind you, with 196 episodes, there are bound to be plenty that aren't so good.
On the other hand, UY was one of the first anime series I watched, which probably colours my opinion of it.
And yeah, there are lots of anime series that could fit into the SF high school comedy sub-sub-genre, so I'll grant you that. UY is also a mahou shoujo in reverse. And then there's Takahashi's incurable punning...
Posted by: Pixy Misa at Friday, August 12 2005 11:45 AM (4N+SC)
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Draw your weapon, Mitch H and prepare to defend your position!
I suppose that i am so jejeune that i should fall on my knees and worship the judgement of my elders?
Ghost has survived the time test.
It spawned a worthy sequel.
It deals with the most important questions of the Age of Information--what is consciousness? who am i? is there a difference between information and reality?
Posted by: matoko kusanagi at Friday, August 12 2005 12:45 PM (JREvR)
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Ah, the memories!
Ranma 1/2 - Saw it, loved the first season, thought the recurring martial arts x tournaments after the renewal were less gripping. Loved the original opening. (Also saw MI and UY, though I never liked MI much and never had the time to go through all of UY). And what about Kimagure Orange Road?
GITS - Absolutely. All of them. (Well, all but the GITS:SAC 2nd season...)
Bubblegum Crisis - saw it, didn't like it, kept looking.
As long as we're on the old days, who else remembers the endless Miaka! Tamahome! exchanges from Fushigi Yuugi?
VHS for the above, recent GITS aside; but some analog fansubs back in the day. This makes me considerably older than I had expected to be by this time in my life.
Mitch:
Weathering Continent? Fun stuff - haven't thought of it for years. I'd say that fansubbing it counts as crazy - whether it counts as ancient or not depends on your source, and apparently on the type of LD involved.
"Oh, Ghost in the Shell sucks rocks. It's what Oshii made after he lost his balls. Nothing he's made after the second Patlabor movie has been worth wiping one's ass clean with." Now we're cooking with gas!
Both Patlabor and UY are good, sure, and it's true that Oshii hasn't been involved in animating the steadily improving GITS:SAC series, and it's true that the GITS movies are, shall we say, highly abstract - but even conceding all that for the moment, I'd throw up Jin-Roh: the Wolf Brigade as something worthwhile that he's done since Patlabor 2. Little red-riding hood meets counterterrorism. Anyway, both GITS movies are pure magic if you like alienation and pretty pictures, and I do.
Three animes one must see? To be otaku? Hmm. One must see more than three to be an otaku, but here are three which, if seen, I think imply enough others to be safe indicators.
Revolutionary Girl Utena - repetitive, highly stylized, surreal, and very distinctively Japanese. Acceptable substitute: Abenobashi Mahou Shoutengai.
Gunbuster - the original one, not the bizarre remake. Acceptable substitute - hoshi no koe, director's edition.
Hikaru no go - if you'll watch seventy-odd episodes of animated go, you clearly watch too much anime. Acceptable substitute - any sports anime exceeding 52 episodes in length: Slam Dunk, Hajime no Ippo, Prince of Tennis (the horror!), etc.
Posted by: HC at Friday, August 12 2005 12:47 PM (vXg7G)
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oh, snaps!
now my typekey id won't work. >:-(
my three:
Ghost, Haibane Renmei:New Feathers, and Howl's Moving Castle or Spirited Away (two best Miyazaki)
Posted by: matoko kusanagi at Friday, August 12 2005 12:50 PM (JREvR)
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I haven't seen "Howl's Moving Castle" but the reviews are distinctly unimpressive. :
"The unthinkable has happened. Hayao Miyazaki made a lousy movie."
Posted by: Steven Den Beste at Friday, August 12 2005 07:54 PM (CJBEv)
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"Oh, Ghost in the Shell sucks rocks."
Mitch, you're a blasphemer! I've enjoyed everything GitS related that I've seen... and I'm up to (opens a different window) ep#19 of GitS:SAC 2nd Gig.
But you've redeemed yourself with a mention of the Girls With Guns. I've never heard of Weathering Hots or whatever it was you were talking about.
Bubblegum Crisis 2032. Sorry, Pixy, I thought that was the easiest way to distinguish betwixt the two series. Is it bad of me to like 2040 as much as the original? I actually LIKE Nene and Linna in 2040.
I listed Ranma 1/2 over Maison or Urusei because it was my first anime... back in (toneless whistling). I'd have no disagreement with either of them in the abstract.
Speaking of the Lovely Angels, has anybody heard anything about the original TV series coming out on DVD? I know ADV has the rights, and occasionally some rumor floats by, but...
Posted by: Wonderduck at Friday, August 12 2005 08:04 PM (nqwdS)
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I have the original Dirty Pair TV series on DVD! Right here on my desk, in fact.
Okay, so I imported it from Japan, and can't understand a word of it. Still...
Posted by: Pixy Misa at Friday, August 12 2005 08:12 PM (4N+SC)
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Rats, I loused up the link.
I haven't seen "Howl's Moving Castle" but the reviews are distinctly unimpressive:
"The unthinkable has happened. Hayao Miyazaki made a lousy movie."
Posted by: Steven Den Beste at Friday, August 12 2005 10:35 PM (CJBEv)
49
Oh gawd, Miyazaki's a moonbat.
Interesting that the one film where he deliberately inserts his politics is his one film that sucks. Well, not so much interesting as inevitable and depressing.
Posted by: Pixy Misa at Friday, August 12 2005 10:58 PM (AIaDY)
50
I loved Howl.
I saw it three times.
maybe it's a chick flick.
;-)
Posted by: matoko kusanagi at Saturday, August 13 2005 01:17 AM (gNc4O)
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humph!
none of you have seen Howl so how can you argue it?
"war is bad" is a common enough theme with miyazaki. look at nausicca and laputa. so is redemption.
my miyazaki test is-- does it make me into a twelve year old again? Howl passes with flying colors.
so, i'm Fio to youse guys' infinte anime sophistication and experience? lol, older doesn't mean better. neccessarily.
Posted by: matoko kusanagi at Saturday, August 13 2005 01:41 AM (gNc4O)
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Pixy, great artists have often been loons. Wagner was a lecher, a bigot, and by all accounts a thoroughly unpleasant man. But his music!
He's dead, and everyone who knew him is dead, but the music lives on.
I judge the work, not the man. Ultimately the man won't matter, but if the work is good it will live forever.
Posted by: Steven Den Beste at Saturday, August 13 2005 01:50 AM (CJBEv)
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Steven - agreed. I find it distressing that Miyazaki is a moonbat, but my admiration for his work still stands.
Matoko - fair enough. I'll reserve judgement until I've actually seen the film. After all, it wouldn't be the first time I've disagreed with a review.
Posted by: Pixy Misa at Saturday, August 13 2005 02:20 AM (AIaDY)
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Oops.
Not much of a flame war, is it?
Posted by: Pixy Misa at Saturday, August 13 2005 02:21 AM (AIaDY)
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pixy, it is much too civilized.
you need to lower your blog's IQ gradient
or else give us some beer.
Posted by: matoko kusanagi at Saturday, August 13 2005 02:28 AM (gNc4O)
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Howl is not Miyazaki's finest film by a long chalk. This, in part, unfair to Miyazaki: the animation is some of his finest - the witch, the moving castle itself, and the marvelous sequence wherein they walk on air above the town are each worth the price of admission.
The plot is, however, muddled at best. The finale in particular is disappointingly rapid, resolving difficult questions with an unearned deus ex machina.
About Miyazaki's politics, well... he's always been that way, and his movies have reflected it before now - and they've been good movies. Nausicaa, for instance, is hard to see as anything other than environmentalist propaganda and still a good movie withal.
So... some of us have seen it, and it did not seem particularly good.
Back to potential flame topics - what about the darkest (worthwhile) series or the lightest same? Ideally this will lead to people disagreeing over the point at which a series dissolves into cotton candy fluff of no redeeming value or, going the other way, into depressing sludge of same.
I'd nominate Narutaru for darkest, and CCS for lightest.
Posted by: HC at Saturday, August 13 2005 07:09 AM (WdeJG)
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Miyazaki has been clearly anti-war as well, and yes, it hasn't spoiled his films.
Darkest worthwhile series? I'm not much into the doom-and-gloom, so I'll have to think about that. (And Narutaru has already taken the award for most misleading opening credits.)
But lightest? I'll see your CCS, and raise you an Azumanga Daioh. (I thought about Nanaka 6/17, Popotan, and Midori no Hibi, but Azumanga Daioh is lighter and better than any of those.)
Posted by: Pixy Misa at Saturday, August 13 2005 07:26 AM (4N+SC)
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Popotan gets my nomination for better than it had any right to be, though.
Posted by: Pixy Misa at Saturday, August 13 2005 07:28 AM (4N+SC)
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It spawned a worthy sequel.
So did Tremors. Wait, bad example. Er... so did Divergence Eve. There, much better.
It deals with the most important questions of the Age
...which is what made it seem so dated a few years later. Actually, that's more of a cogent critique of the manga than the movie. Frankly, Oshii's biggest problem is that he takes his own ideas, and his thought-processes on said ideas, far, far too seriously. Patlabor 2 is, if anything, even more talky than the Ghost in the Shell movie, but at least he had something interesting to say, there.
God, cyberpunk gets more dated every year. It's getting so that van Vogt seems timely in comparison.
HC: Jin-Roh was exactly what I was thinking about when I was bitching about Oshii. Dave Merrill's eviceration of that movie says it all far better than I ever could.
What were y'all expecting from Miyazaki? The man drew comics for the house organ of a Japanese Maoist party, for the love of Marx!
Posted by: Mitch H. at Saturday, August 13 2005 10:39 AM (iTVQj)
60
Popotan is the dandelion-powered harem anime, right? I can't criticize it forcefully, not having seen it, but I will note this is the first comment which would make me consider seeing it.
I like some things that dark in and of themselves, but my favorites are both harrowing and redemptive. This is why Grave of the Fireflies, admirable as it is, is not one I like; ditto SaiKano.
Narutaru's opening credits are a work of unbridled genius. If you've read the entire manga, you'll realize that not only do they give away massive plot secrets in the opening, but they do it boldly. Paranoid frame by frame analysis is actually advised here, and it's always nice when someone puts that much effort into making an OP meaningful.
Plus, they're fun to watch. The only thing I've seen to approach them is the ending animation for Argent Soma, and that isn't half so impressive.
I picked CCS because it seems to be constantly on the verge of dissolving into a sugar flavored soap bubble. Tange Sakura, Sakura's seiyuu seems like prolonged exposure would cause insulin shock, but she doesn't... quite. Azumanga Daioh, I would contend, is deceptively light-seeming. When you begin watching it, it looks like it's about nothing more than high school hijinks - by the end, you realize that it has effortless covered serious questions. Besides, a significant portion of the humor is mean enough that it doesn't seem light...
It is, however, better than light series mentioned so far, CCS included.
Posted by: HC at Saturday, August 13 2005 01:24 PM (xGJ+z)
61
What were y'all expecting from Miyazaki? The man drew comics for the house organ of a Japanese Maoist party, for the love of Marx!
To quote Neddy Seagoon: I did not wish to know that!
Posted by: Pixy Misa at Saturday, August 13 2005 04:08 PM (ymzzr)
62
Popotan is the dandelion-powered harem anime, right?
That's the one, although without trying to give too much away, um, it isn't.
I can't criticize it forcefully, not having seen it, but I will note this is the first comment which would make me consider seeing it.
Yep. I went in expecting total fluff, and was very much surprised. Oh, it's not the greatest show in all of creation, but it's a lot deeper than you'd expect. Plus the closing credits are hyper-cute.
Posted by: Pixy Misa at Saturday, August 13 2005 04:13 PM (ymzzr)
63
As long as we're on the old days, who else remembers the endless Miaka! Tamahome! exchanges from Fushigi Yuugi?
How could I forget? I've you'd taken them out, the series would have been four episodes shorter. MIAKA!!! TAMAHOME!!!!!
Posted by: Pixy Misa at Saturday, August 13 2005 04:20 PM (ymzzr)
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Ghost, Haibane Renmei:New Feathers, and Howl's Moving Castle or Spirited Away (two best Miyazaki)
I've been meaning to get Haibane Renmei. I saw a couple of episodes (well, about three quarters of each of the first two) at an Anime con, and quite liked it. I think I even bought the first DVD.
My favourite Miyazaki remains Kiki's Delivery Service, and my favourite to show other people is still Totoro, but Spirited Away is very very good.
Posted by: Pixy Misa at Saturday, August 13 2005 04:24 PM (ymzzr)
65
Pixy, you MUST GET "Haibane Renmei" IMMEDIATELY. It is the single finest anime I've ever seen. For crying out loud, man, where are your priorities?
As to the lightest worthwhile anime, I'd have to go with "Sugar, a little Snow Fairy" ("Yukitsukai Shuga"). Just the character designs have put some people off (as demonstrated by email I received after I gave it a strongly positive review) but it isn't empty fluff.
Posted by: Steven Den Beste at Saturday, August 13 2005 05:56 PM (CJBEv)
66
Darkest anime? For me so far it's Noir. Doesn't mean it's bad, not at all. So far, it's amazing (I'm halfway thru). But it's quite grim.
Lighthearted anime? Does Adventures of the Mini-Goddess count?
Posted by: Wonderduck at Sunday, August 14 2005 01:55 AM (QbcjU)
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I don't know that Dave Merrill eviscerated Jin-Roh: he concludes that "[i]n the final analysis, all this is pretty academic; as much as been made of the German theme and the rioting, this is actually a movie about cop versus cop. As a police drama, without the extraneous trappings, it is an excellent drama." That he found his enjoyment of the drama 'crippled' by recurring questions about the alternate history behind the movie is a pity, but the movie does not focus on that history nor is it necessary to grasp it thoroughly in order to enjoy the drama. So I'd agree with Merill that it's worthwhile, and even go so far as to agree that the sci-fi premise is not the film's strength.
Haibane Renmei is excellent. I don't know that I'd say single finest anime series I've seen, but it is a worthy contender for that place; Now & then, here & there, Azumanga Daioh, and Kodomo no Omocha might be some others. Maybe Kaleido Star. That's a list that can be fun to argue over, but sadly it usually ends in a group of candidates rather than war to the knife over the selection of a single victor.
Sugar, true to its name, does send people into insulin shock. I can't watch it for more than short stretches at a time; there are a few series like that, not all from sweetness overload. It is worthwhile, and it is pretty darn sweet - one might find something with a higher sweet x worthwhile rating, but finding one sweeter with a minimal worthwhile rating will be interesting.
Noir is great. Absolutely wonderful. If you like it, it's worth watching the first few episodes of Madlax to see how great the gap is between the same team, same premise, when everything comes together and when it doesn't.
Posted by: HC at Sunday, August 14 2005 03:31 AM (kZ/GI)
68
One of my readers recently commented on how stomach-rumbling seemed surprisingly common in anime. It's true -- and it's cliche.
But when it happens to Sugar, it's definitely unique. What does stomach-rumbling sound like for a 5 inch tall fairy? The seiyuu had to come up with a sound which was convincing -- and cute.
And she did. The series is absolutely drenched in kawaii yet for me it really did work quite well.
Posted by: Steven Den Beste at Sunday, August 14 2005 09:19 AM (CJBEv)
69
hmm..i have to weigh in on Howl before lighting up on dark anime. heh.
HC-- So... some of us have seen it, and it did not seem particularly good.
perhaps you don't have the correct perspective. Howl is the first romantic miyazaki, where the hero and heroine are of age. maybe i thought it was wonderful because i am a grrl, and, um, some younger than you guys? i loved Howl, beautiful, vain, selfish, childish. i loved that sophie morphed between ages, and she and Howl didn't notice. Howl loved sophie whatever age she was. i loved that sophie never whined. i especially loved the scarecrow with his ballet arms and pirouettes. i didn't read the book deliberately because i didn't want to spoil it, but it was just magic for me. Miyazaki said he made it for a young girl of 60--maybe he made it for all us young girls.
here's my talking points.
1. war is bad is a miyazaki theme. the seven days of burning in Nausicca, and the war robots of Laputa. warring behavior in mononoke.
2. no one is beyond redemption. evil characters are redeemed in mononoke and nausicca (btw, nausicca is not about the environment, but about courage, and doing the right thing, imho)
3. someone told me once the miyazaki animes are like making cloud pictures--you might see a cow where i might see a dragon. he has such a light touch that all sorts of magic and possibilities fill the screen. he just suggests, in some places, and lets you map your own dreams.
Posted by: matoko kusanagi at Monday, August 15 2005 12:54 AM (ZpDbz)
70
That Hello Kitty in a tiger costume is so frickin' KAWAII it makes me go "awwww" and want to vomit at the same time.
Posted by: Wonderduck at Monday, August 15 2005 03:23 AM (QbcjU)
71
[That last comment might seem like a non-sequitur, but for the fact that it and the previous comment were on the approval queue until just now. I wonder how I can turn that off... PM]
Posted by: Pixy Misa at Monday, August 15 2005 03:34 AM (ymzzr)
72
Without knowing what your settings are, there is a spot in the configuration area of MT that might help. Go to:
Main Menu > [your blog] > Configuration > Preferences
There's a section for Comments on that page. I assume you have "Accept Comments from Unregistered Visitors" selected with "Enable Unregistered Comment Moderation"
However, if you have MT-Blacklist installed, you may have selected some weird options for "forced moderation" there (the last two options on the MT-Blacklist configuration page might be the problem)
Of course, all of those options are there to cut down on spam, so deactivate at your own risk:)
Posted by: Mark at Monday, August 15 2005 01:14 PM (tNllG)
73
((wonderduck))
;-)
http://onastick.net/sitz/images/
Posted by: matoko kusanagi at Monday, August 15 2005 02:49 PM (ZpDbz)
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Major, that is SO not right. I can't even tell you how not right that is.
I love it.
Posted by: Wonderduck at Monday, August 15 2005 09:06 PM (nqwdS)
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Thanks Mark. I was looking in the MT config, but it was MT Blacklist doing it. It should be fixed now.
Posted by: Pixy Misa at Tuesday, August 16 2005 01:22 AM (AIaDY)
76
Yup. That should make things run a bit smoother.
Posted by: Pixy Misa at Tuesday, August 16 2005 01:22 AM (AIaDY)
77
For light anime, I'd have to nominate the show from which our too gracious host drew the name Pixy Misa, Mahou Shoujo Pretty Sammy. But it should be noted I'm referring more to the TV series than the OVAs. As I understand it, the three OVA episodes were each seperated by a year or more, and there was never any intention to really take the story anywhere. The TV series on the other hand is a real gem of a show. The way they skewer the magical girl genre without driving to extremes (like, ohh... Excel Saga) makes it great to watch for the sugary-sweet satire while still staying coherent. And I have to say, the costs of the DVDs was more than offset by the omake included on each volume. The "Pixy Cinderella" sketch is great, as are the sketch featuring the "Sammy Cave" and the tribute to Wile E. Coyote and the Roadrunner.
As for "dark" shows... I've lost interest, even in black comedies. After I found myself laughing entirely too much during "Very Bad Things," I decided I may need to take a break for a couple (dozen) years.
Posted by: yaminohasha at Tuesday, August 16 2005 03:02 AM (DQVnR)
78
Oh yeah, that one. :)
Surprisingly for the type of show it is, as far as I recall only one episode of Magical Girl Pretty Sammy is filler; all the others are directly related to the plot.
And Pixy Misa's theme song is priceless.
Dammit, I have it on VHS, so I've never seen the omake. Have to correct that!
Posted by: Pixy Misa at Tuesday, August 16 2005 03:45 AM (AIaDY)
79
Well, there are a couple episodes that are corny and don't do much for the story. I'm betting you're thinking of the Western/Ninja village. That episode didn't really seem to have a point. But they usually make a token attempt to add to the relationship between Sasami and Misao, or the crush Rumiya has on Misao, or some such.
Yes, correct that. The omake almost make the DVD. The extras also include a movie trailer.
Posted by: yaminohasha at Tuesday, August 16 2005 01:12 PM (DQVnR)
80
Hey, Kusanagi... you think that WarKitty40K is bad, check THIS out: http://www.gizmodo.com/gadgets/gadgets/hello-kitty-headlamps-009230.php
Go ahead, admit it... you want a pair.
Posted by: Wonderduck at Tuesday, August 16 2005 05:04 PM (+rGmJ)
81
heh. i do want those bad, wonderduck...i am consumed with hello-kitty lust.
Posted by: matoko kusanagi at Wednesday, August 17 2005 12:28 AM (wxUTp)
82
ya pidoras, pizu chujie doors, zaabuzte moi url - http://greatpharmacies.com/ a suda pishite pisma i spamte - admass@pisem.net
Posted by: ya pidoras at Thursday, July 27 2006 06:11 AM (NnxRL)
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